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50NL JJ rr pot turn decision

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nogenius

01-09-2007, 09:20 PM Post subject: 50NL JJ rr pot turn decision

#1 (permalink)

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($121.95)
BB ($34.95)
UTG ($34.75)
MP ($78.40)
Hero ($50.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J

, J

.
UTG raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $7, 2 folds, UTG calls $5.

Flop: ($14.75) T

, 3

, Q

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($14.75) 4

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero ???

---

Villian is an unknown.

Do you bet the turn here, or check it, and why?

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silu73

01-09-2007, 09:26 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Whats wrong with betting the flop? As played I would bet around $10 on the turn.

swiggidy

01-09-2007, 09:40 PM

#3 (permalink)

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yes bet flop, as played bet turn, no reason to give AK, JK, any random pp, etc a free card

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Warpe

01-09-2007, 10:11 PM

#4 (permalink)

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A pattern is emerging here. You need to follow through more on your preflop aggression postflop.

freechus9

01-10-2007, 04:46 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

You need to follow through more on your preflop aggression postflop.
You need to follow through more on your preflop aggression postflop.
You need to follow through more on your preflop aggression postflop.
You need to follow through more on your preflop aggression postflop.
You need to follow through more on your preflop aggression postflop.
You need to follow through more on your preflop aggression postflop.
You need to follow through more on your preflop aggression postflop.

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andy-akb

01-10-2007, 05:37 AM

#6 (permalink)

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WTF? Why are all you guys suggesting betting this flop? What is it going to accomplish? If you bet around $10 on the turn you play it the same way I do. Checking the flop is the best play IMO but if you do that you need to be betting blank turns to try to get some value out of the hand as we are underrepping our hand and will get calls from worse.

Thinking about how you phrased this it seems to me that you are thinking you are beat and arent really checking to under-rep your hand but instead because you dont want to get more money in while behind. If we are only able to put our opponent on TT+,AQ+ then obviously we should just check it down and hope he has AK, but we cant do that. If we had a read on our opponent AND he reraised instead of us reraising, then the hand would play a lot differently. In this spot we will see mid PPs a lot and probably some other hands we are ahead of that will call a bet.

Basically, I like the flop play even though Im not sure you did it for the same reasons I am thinking of, but if we are playing it that way [which I think we should], then we need to bet the turn.

griffey24

01-10-2007, 02:47 PM

#7 (permalink)

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I'm with andy-akb and nogenius here, in that I sometimes check this flop.

If we bet this flop, any Q calls (along with any flush draw granted) but we fold any mid pairs. If we check this flop, and bet a blank turn, then we can potentially get another bet out of worse hands.

Lose the least to hands that have us beat, and gain the most from hands we beat.

The only downside to checking the flop is giving a flush draw and AK a free card. I don't see many flush draws given that it is a re-raised pot, but AK is definitely possible ...

silu73

01-10-2007, 05:59 PM

#8 (permalink)

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I think there is a case here for a) to check the flop and b) bet the flop. In position when I was the aggressor pre-flop I will bet that flop in position. But I can see your point in checking the flop to underrep your hand.

andy-akb

01-10-2007, 07:07 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by silu_nz

Why will you bet that flop though? And why does being in position change it? Wouldnt being in position be more reason to check? Im not saying that betting is a mistake, I just want somebody to actually look into why they are betting and explain it. Nobody has done that yet.

griffey24

01-10-2007, 07:42 PM

#10 (permalink)

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I guess we would bet here for value, if we knew that villain was a donk who often calls bets with marginal holdings that are worse than ours.

In this case, we are told that villain is unknown.

So I guess the question is, do we assume that most players are donks who bleed money, or solid and fold when they are beat? If we assume the former, then bet, otherwise, check.

We also bet here to make flush draws pay, while we figure to be ahead.

silu73

01-10-2007, 11:25 PM

#11 (permalink)

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I would bet the flop because

a) I was the aggressor pre-flop so I would bet that flop most of the time even if I didn't hit the board.
b) one overcard on board & two diamonds on board.
c) Build the pot because I believe that I'm ahead here.

That is the best case I can make for betting the flop.

Toadstool

01-11-2007, 02:04 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Toadstool will become famous soon enough

I think checking the flop is the better play by far, If you C-Bet your opponant thinks you have at least TPTK, your over-repping your hand, therefore giving your actual hand less value and chasing away any hands we may get value from. You dont want to be playing a big pot in this situation, check for pot control. Yes, opponant may have AK here, but you arent bad enough to pay him off (unless a J comes) he may have 2 diamonds, but if he does he probably has a royal or straight flush draw as its a reraised pot, and hes probably jamming it forcing you to fold. He might have KJ - unlikely as you have 2 J's.

Always think about WHY to bet, in this spot I think its far better to check, cant really see the upside of betting here.

But bet the turn for sure.

Warpe

01-11-2007, 02:04 AM

#13 (permalink)

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^^^^^^^ agree with silu_nz heartily.

I understand what you're saying andy, but checking this flop after we've reraised preflop turns the monster we're repping into a whiffed AK.

Are we checking the flop if we have AA/KK/QQ here?

Think about what a flop check says to an opponent with decent hand reading skills. Do we slowplay our set with TT or QQ here with a flush draw out? Likely not. Do we check if we have AA or KK? No. Do we check with AQ/KQ? No. What's left in our preflop reraising range? Not a lot, except AK and the exact cards we're holding.

I am keeping an open mind here, however.

01-11-2007, 02:09 AM

#14 (permalink)

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OMG AN OVER CARD CAME OUT CHECK FOLD.

Seriously, bet this flop. Please. If you are called and he checks to you on the turn, then you'll have to reevaluate.

I'll agree with others that you can sometimes check this, and it's sometimes really good to check here, but you've had a few posts like this the past few days, so I dunno...

As played bet the turn and see what happens. You probably take it down a bunch here because his 55 missed on the flop *and* turn.

Renton

01-11-2007, 04:52 AM

#15 (permalink)

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u can check here if its rainbow and villain is a "monkey checked to, monkey bet" type.

Neither of these prereqs are in place, so u have to bet.

benny999

01-11-2007, 06:19 AM

#16 (permalink)

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I agree you don't always have to follow through. cbetting the flop is fine, but I think you can often gain more by slowplaying the flop instead.

also, it can effect how they react later because you aren't so predictable, which will help to control the pot and to sometimes suck out.

andy-akb

01-11-2007, 07:12 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

It doesnt really turn our hand into AK because I am not folding to a bet when I check here. Yes, I am also probably checking AA and KK but with QQ I am most likely betting but still checking there some of the time to mix it up. I check with AA, KK, AQ or KQ, and a stronger hand like a set a small percentage of the timeand I am basically betting this flop with a set or with air. So yea, if JJ is the only hand I would check here then it would be a mistake, but my range on this flop is much more deceptive than that and while it will definitely put me in a lot more tough spots later in the hand, I really think this play gains a lot of value from our more marginal hands without really losing value from our strong hands AND is making our opponents question our play much much more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by silu_nz

A) This doesnt really answer anything though, simply because we bet the flop most of the time doesnt mean that it is the correct play. The question should be about whether or not betting the flop is the most profitable play or if checking could be better.

B) Why does this make us want to bet? I understand charging the diamond draw, but why should we bet because of an overcard? How big a part of your opponents range do you put a FD and how often do they hit? When they hit are we going to pay them off?

C) Ok, so we bet the flop and get a call. Turn brings a diamond and villain leads into us, what do we do? Turn is a blank, we bet and are c/red, what do we do? Turn is a blank and are lead into, what do we do? Turn checks through and we are lead into on a blank river, what do we do? K river? A river? Diamond river?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

OMG AN OVER CARD CAME OUT CHECK FOLD.

Im not checking because Im scared of an overcard and I never advocated folding.

Anyways guys, betting the flop isnt bad, and is surely profitable and against some opponents I would say it is the most profitable play, but overall I think checking is going to create the most +EV situation for us.

pgil

01-11-2007, 02:26 PM

#18 (permalink)

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There are way too many hands out there that we aren't that far ahead of. AK w/ no diamonds has a good 8 outs against us here, and if you add a single diamond for the backdoor draw then you can give him a couple more. With that in mind I think checking the flop for pot control reasons should be a consideration.

The only problem is this may give our opp reason to think he can take this pot away from us, and since we don't have any reads on this guy (how aggressive, will he attempt to CR the flop against a pf RR w/ AQ) I wouldn't be too confident in my hand if he fired the turn and river.

In all honesty however, this guy probably called the pf reraise with a -set it or forget it- mentality, so there probably isnt all that much value to be extracted here, until he hits, and if he does hit he will be ahead of us. Unless we know that he will bet/call a bet with a second best hand here, it's probably best to end this hand on the flop by continuing to rep the big PP.

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50NL JJ rr pot turn decision

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