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nogenius
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01-09-2007, 09:17 PM
Post subject: 50NL JJ line checkup
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 772
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
SB ($24.50)
Hero ($50.60)
UTG ($61.25)
MP ($49.25)
Button ($48.40)
Preflop: Hero is BB with J , J .
UTG calls $0.50, MP raises to $2.5, 2 folds, Hero raises to $8, UTG folds, MP calls $5.50.
Flop: ($16.75) 6, 6 , 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $6, Hero calls $6.
Turn: ($28.75) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $15.5, Hero folds.
---
Villian is 25/15/1.7 over 45 hands. No special reads otherwise.
How's my line here?
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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eww, this is really gross. You're raising JJ because you're ahead of his range right? I don't like checking the flop because he can easily check behind with AK, and hope to hit the turn. Plus this bet is so weak, maybe he missed, maybe he thinks you missed and TT is good, who knows. Same with the turn.
If the only part of his range that calls the raise is QQ+ then raising pre-flop is a huge mistake. I lead the flop.
And a question, you post a lot of hands but not much else. I don't really care because I'm playing 50NL and other's opinions are helping me with my own analyzing ability. Are you learning a lot from these posts, is it helping you analyze your game?
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(='.'=)
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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You have to bet that flop.
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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Re-raising preflop but not betting that flop is criminal. Did he really raise/call with a 6, QQ, KK or AA in the pocket?
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
You have to bet that flop.
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Such a good flop to c-bet EVEN if you weren't repping QQ+.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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as played i lead the turn, you flip your hand up for him to see that way.
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DubRod
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 112
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I doubt he wouldnt have pushed AA or KK preflop so what your afraid of is QQ,6, or 4's(verry unlikely).
There is no way I dont bet that flop and if i hadnt I probably reraise is flop bet. Seems like he c-bet and smelled weekness.
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freechus9
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: IN UR BOX HAXXING UR FILEZ
Posts: 1,000
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ew
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My sig is too much for you to handle.
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nogenius
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 772
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
eww, this is really gross. You're raising JJ because you're ahead of his range right? I don't like checking the flop because he can easily check behind with AK, and hope to hit the turn. Plus this bet is so weak, maybe he missed, maybe he thinks you missed and TT is good, who knows. Same with the turn.
If the only part of his range that calls the raise is QQ+ then raising pre-flop is a huge mistake. I lead the flop.
And a question, you post a lot of hands but not much else. I don't really care because I'm playing 50NL and other's opinions are helping me with my own analyzing ability. Are you learning a lot from these posts, is it helping you analyze your game?
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Yep, posting here is definitely a huge helper in analyzing my game.
Right now, I'm essentially a breakeven player at 50NL, and I feel like I have tons of holes in my play. Once I feel more confident I will start helping other people out and replying to more posts. 
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
You have to bet that flop.
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And why is that?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by silu_nz
Re-raising preflop but not betting that flop is criminal. Did he really raise/call with a 6, QQ, KK or AA in the pocket?
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Ok, so he has a wider range than that, what does cbetting accomplish against that range?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by freechus9
ew
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...?
I think the flop check is standard, as is the call. On the turn I again like the check but against most opponents I will probably call another bet with the intention of c/fing the river. If your sample were much much larger on your opponent, then I think this line is fine, but as played there are still some hands we are getting value out of, but if he bets again Im out of the hand.
To everybody else in this thread: Start thinking about why you are betting, think about what it will achieve against your opponents likely range. Also, simply because betting may be +EV doesnt mean that it is the _most_ +EV option. This is something Genitruc has been working on me a ton with [and if you think Im misapplying it here, feel free to pop in] and as he says [and I think Ive noticed it as well] how you handle these situations about betting, etc. is what separates the winners from the big winners.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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good post andy, doesn't this logic make 3betting pre-flop wrong? I would assume this villain calls QQ+, maybe TT, AQ+. TT isn't going to bet 3 times so we gain some value there, but we're loosing additional value more often to QQ+ by calling down. AQ+ we're 50/50 against since we're allowing them to see all five cards. So we are automatically forfeiting 45% of the pot equity that we built pre-flop. Calling pre-flop keeps all the rest of the pairs in and all kinds of other stuff our hand plays better against post-flop.
I was led here by the thought that the biggest thing we're giving up by check/calling is protection. I'm not sure how many hands we need protection against with no flush draw, so it seems we chased out too many hands pre-flop.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
good post andy, doesn't this logic make 3betting pre-flop wrong? I would assume this villain calls QQ+, maybe TT, AQ+. TT isn't going to bet 3 times so we gain some value there, but we're loosing additional value more often to QQ+ by calling down. AQ+ we're 50/50 against since we're allowing them to see all five cards. So we are automatically forfeiting 45% of the pot equity that we built pre-flop. Calling pre-flop keeps all the rest of the pairs in and all kinds of other stuff our hand plays better against post-flop.
I was led here by the thought that the biggest thing we're giving up by check/calling is protection. I'm not sure how many hands we need protection against with no flush draw, so it seems we chased out too many hands pre-flop.
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Protect your stack, not your hand. We are not giving AK all 5 cards, as played I say I c/c the flop, but if it checks through then Im leading the turn. We are going to have a general idea of what cards are going to help our villain and also we will see based on how he bets, so while we are giving free cards in a sense [basically just the turn], we arent always going to pay them off on those cards. Against a player who doesnt have a very tight opening range [which this player doesnt even taking into consideration the sample size] they are going to be _calling_ 3bets with a wider range than that, its much different than when they are making the 3bet.
So let me try to sum this up a little bit. Playing the hand more passively will definitely put us in some tougher spots and even allow our opponent to catch up sometimes. However, this isn't always a bad thing, we just need to learn to play postflop and we need to stop looking at the easy +EV situations and towards the tougher but greater EV decisions.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
So let me try to sum this up a little bit. Playing the hand more passively will definitely put us in some tougher spots and even allow our opponent to catch up sometimes. However, this isn't always a bad thing, we just need to learn to play postflop and we need to stop looking at the easy +EV situations and towards the tougher but greater EV decisions.
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Just wanted to thank andy-akb for this last few posts. Quite frankly, the idea of re-raising preflop, getting called and NOT betting this kind of flop with jacks, never crossed my mind. I am pretty sure I ALWAYS bet here.. but now I'm starting to think if this is best...
Are you saying that if we think villain could have AQ/AK and would fold to a bet on the flop, that we should check call to keep them in the hand, even if they might catch up? And if this is the case, how low does your pocket have to be where you don't wanna give overs the chance to catch up anymore (ie bet flop), on this kind of board? 10's.. 9's?... if an A,K,or Q come on the turn.. what do we do then? check/fold?.. hmmmm
Playing the hand this way certainly makes this hand a lot harder to play! But thanks andy-ak, for shedding a new light on how to play this kind of spot.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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checking this flop is a good value play vs aggressive players, but we need to bet the turn
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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After a session last night were a similar hand came up I think that I would have checked that flop as well against anyone who is not a passive rock but I would still lead the turn.
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