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kmind
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09-09-2009, 05:11 PM
Post subject: 50NL Can We Just Fold River?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Not too many hands vs. villain so far but what I have noticed is that he's been too loose (not crazy loose) in regards to calling preflop in 2bet pots so can only assume the same with 3bet pots. He has been semi-passive postflop. I've been really active, especially right before this hand took place. and he is only 1 tabling. Does he notice? He can't really ever be bluffing this river can he? Can he try to get some value with anything else (TT-KK) we tie/beat?
Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Button ($62.95)
SB ($50)
BB ($18.55)
UTG ($131.10)
MP ($62.25)
Hero (CO) ($56.35)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K , K
UTG bets $1.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $5.50, 3 folds, UTG calls $3.75
Flop: ($11.75) 5 , A , 9 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($11.75) 3 (2 players)
UTG bets $6.50, Hero calls $6.50
River: ($24.75) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $7.50, Hero calls $7.50
Total pot: $39.75 | Rake: $1.95
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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This seems fine, given the price we're getting I can't imagine playing it very different. River is close though, cause I think this is AQ a ton.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Does anyone like bet flop check back turn better?
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Was wondering about that too, iopq. The thing with the KK on Axx boards is that, at least when I am bluffing, I get a shitload of folds. It really makes me think most people just fold to Axx boards in a 3bet pot without an A.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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seems fine, price too good on the river to fold
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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I rather check flop/bet turn on this board, because we only fold worse hands which we're beating anyway
I call river but expect to be beat a lot, still the price is too good. I fold to something like half pot or bigger
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BigPapi
I rather check flop/bet turn on this board, because we only fold worse hands which we're beating anyway
I call river but expect to be beat a lot, still the price is too good. I fold to something like half pot or bigger
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yeah but when we check flop we're basically saying that we can't beat TPGK so he's going to bet his like AJ in this way and extract value
if we bet flop, check back turn, he won't bet river because he's going to be worried that he's valuetowning himself vs. AQ/AK that decided to play tricky to get more value
the only reason you wouldn't want to do this is if you expect him to float, this is probably not the board that people float with random crap
am I thinking correctly here? Another reason is possibly getting TT, JJ to call flop, but I think I'm the only person who would call flop but fold after flop checks through and villain bets turn (because it looks like you have QQ-KK or A2s or something)
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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If we bet flop we're way behind his calling range, so I dont really see an advantage to this... I dont think there is a lot of hands like AJ in his UTG opening range which he calls a 3bet with to begin with, so I dont worry about those hands too much (perhaps AQ, AK is less likely obv). Personally I would think he has more pp's in his range. As played I could still see him v-bet JJ/QQ after we check flop (perhaps even TT) or call our bets with those hands at least 1 street. He might also turn a lower pair in a bluff, since we checked the ace high flop. But to be honest his postflop line looks like Ax a lot (and with this particular player he might have more Ax in his preflop range then standard regs) but given the price...
TT/JJ might call flop, but most would still call if you check flop/bet turn I think for at least 1 street. We cant get too much value out of this hand anyway on this board from most hands if we're the one doing the betting.
BTW. calling flop with JJ/QQ might be correct, because his range for betting is Ax/air. But that would depend on 3bet stat from opp if there is much room for air. And only if you ,as 3better, know that your opponent is capable of thinking this, you could bet KK here for value. But I doubt this particular opp. is thinking like that
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BigPapi
If we bet flop we're way behind his calling range, so I dont really see an advantage to this... I dont think there is a lot of hands like AJ in his UTG opening range which he calls a 3bet with to begin with, so I dont worry about those hands too much (perhaps AQ, AK is less likely obv). Personally I would think he has more pp's in his range. As played I could still see him v-bet JJ/QQ after we check flop (perhaps even TT) or call our bets with those hands at least 1 street. He might also turn a lower pair in a bluff, since we checked the ace high flop. But to be honest his postflop line looks like Ax a lot (and with this particular player he might have more Ax in his preflop range then standard regs) but given the price...
TT/JJ might call flop, but most would still call if you check flop/bet turn I think for at least 1 street. We cant get too much value out of this hand anyway on this board from most hands if we're the one doing the betting.
BTW. calling flop with JJ/QQ might be correct, because his range for betting is Ax/air. He shouldnt have KK in that range, so we shouldnt bet flop with KK here imo
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yeah but we're calling turn anyway so our decision is either put in a flop bet ourselves or let him put a turn bet in
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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yeah, but if we check flop, call turn, we might still be ahead when he bets river. If we bet flop and get called we have to fold to anymore resistence... I think it's better to try and get to showdown cheap where we might still be good. so check behind flop seems a good way to start
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BigPapi
yeah, but if we check flop, call turn, we might still be ahead when he bets river. If we bet flop and get called we have to fold to anymore resistence... I think it's better to try and get to showdown cheap where we might still be good. so check behind flop seems a good way to start
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in your example we call two bets if we check behind flop, but fold to the second bet on the river if we check turn behind
why is that?
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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because i think they dont check turn/bluff river when they call flop, they would continue bluffing on turn. So we're in really bad shape when they bet river?
I would also fold to a normal betsize on river after we check flop/call turn
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that's only true if we're OOP and he checks turn back in position
the only way for HIM to float OOP is to call flop, see us check turn and fire river unless you're suggesting he would call flop and donk turn as a bluff
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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yeah that seems unlikely
but do you agree we're in better shape against his wider range when we check flop, call turn then when we bet flop, check behind turn? it seems that way to me, but not sure if it's the case. I just feel like he has more bluff combo's in his range if we play it this way
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