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50NL AK 3bet pot 240bb deep - Line check

  
 
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HiLo
Old 07-12-2010, 09:15 AM     Post subject: 50NL AK 3bet pot 240bb deep - Line check #1 (permalink)  
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CO has been playing 24/20/7.5 with 3.4 3b, 80% F3b, over about 200 hands. I have 3 bet him several times in the the last 30 mins and he has folded every time. The original raiser here is a fish and this is the first time villain in the CO has seen me 3bet him. I haven't been squeezing loads.

Not enough history postflop to know if he likes to float, but FWIW his flop call is ~40%.


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Button ($26.56)
Hero (SB) ($118.15)
BB ($100)
UTG ($49.26)
MP ($71.46)
CO ($160.46)
Preflop: Hero is SB with K, A
1 fold, MP bets $1.50, CO calls $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises $6.25, 2 folds, CO calls $5
Flop: ($15) A, 4, 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $11, CO calls $11
Turn: ($37) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $26, Hero calls $26
River: ($89) 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $49, Hero calls $49
Total pot: $187
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Carroters
Old 07-12-2010, 12:40 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 I don't understand your c/c c/c line when we don't even know if he's pure floating us much here. He'll probably town himself with AQ just because your line is so weird so as played I'm obv not c/f at any stage. I'd likely just go bet bet bet here over 3 streets to get max value from his worse aces, since I think on the turn he'll often just be checking back Ax JJ TT etc anyway. If he isn't calling your squueze that lightly he probably doesn't float random broadway hands with 0 equity here enough for c/c turn to be better than value betting turn and river. If you let him check back AJ AQ here for one street it's a pretty big disaster since you lose a fair whack of value and it's not like we have a good reason to think the benifits of checking turn will outweigh this.

 
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Outlaw
Old 07-13-2010, 11:59 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Well played
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Carroters
Old 07-13-2010, 12:08 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw View Post
Well played
Umm wai? You're electing to c/c vs a range that prolly contains very few floats (80% fold to 3 bet, dry ass flop where he can't have much equity to float, no reads that he floats.) when you can value bet the shit out of worse hands that will check back turn and/or river if we c/c?

 
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bspahn
Old 07-13-2010, 04:35 PM #5 (permalink)  
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when quite deep with opponents you can get into some bad spots with AK when you get 4bet, so keep that in mind to have a plan for your 3bet .. just a consideration - sometimes call in a spot like this and play a smaller pot where you keep in tons of dominated hands.

anyway as played i would probably bet a bit less on the flop, it's not super connected in terms of their calling ranges. bet maybe $9 for instance on the flop. i would keep betting turn/river and these bets don't have to be super big since you're deep, and the CO guy (reg) isn't gonna be super happy putting in a buyin or more here with hands you beat like AJ/AQ.

his calling range here as played has tons of small-medium pairs so if he starts pumpin tons of money in here i'd be pretty worried with AK. after you 3bet and bet flop/turn you're almost always gonna have a strong Ace so your hand is pretty face up so it's likely you're not gonna get bluffed at much.
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sauce123
Old 07-13-2010, 11:19 PM #6 (permalink)  
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bet bet bet

bspahn, 3ball is good with AK, just because 80% fld3bet in a small sample still means we almost always have him dominated and getting a ton of folds is obv very good as well preflop. we should be flatting AQ though against this player as well as AJ AT A9 KQ etc. and then 3betting him with all kinds of bajunky constantly

postflop carroters nailed it, though he does in fact have a fair amnt of floats and also he might bet twice with AQ AJ but fold them to a 3barrel, so check/calling down from turn isnt unequivocally bad. however the std is ofc to bet thrice
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griffey24
Old 07-14-2010, 03:41 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 Why are we not bet/bet/betting here?

I don't get it.

If I was gonna go into c/c mode. I'd probably do it all three streets.

Anyways, I'd probably just triple barrel and expect to get called down by AQ a ton, and ATs/AJs pretty often.
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I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
 
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pocketfours
Old 07-14-2010, 11:00 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
I don't get it.
Hey my friend the Griffo why every time this negative tone? This can be interpreted as "are you stupid?" That probably isn't the message you want to convey?

The line OP took isn't terrible and it's not very easy to see why betting is better against most (but not all) opponents.
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griffey24
Old 07-14-2010, 11:08 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 haha nooo not meaning a negative tone.. perhaps I should put a question mark.. "I don't get it?"

So not "are you stupid"... but more like "I don't get it... I really don't think this is close to as good as bet bet bet.. so explain your reasoning on the c/c"

People can't post non-standard lines and not explain their thought process!

P4's - on some boards I would agree with you that c/c the last two streets could be ok. AdTh9h3c5d or some other coordinated board where he calls flop with all this draws, he bets turn with all his draws and now all this air that called flop gets to the river. That's just not at all the case on this board.

What worse hands on this board are you hoping are betting turn/river that aren't calling turn/river to our bets? Compared to his worse hands that are calling turn/river bets, that will check back the river.
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I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
 
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HiLo
Old 07-14-2010, 04:01 PM #10 (permalink)  
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My reasoning on this hand was that after his flop call his range was weighted heavily toward AQ/AJ/ TT JJ etc (and sets). We are deep and villain has shown no signs of being a complete donk, so I figured I wouldn't get 3 streets of value from any hand I beat, so I took the c-c line to try and gain 2 bets from worse aces, and maybe a one bet from mid pairs, whilst avoiding stacking myself against a set that calls the turn and raises me on the river when I am likely pot committed.

I dunno if this reasoning was correct hence why I posted the hand! From the comments on here it seems the line was probably not optimal but not terribad either.
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pocketfours
Old 07-14-2010, 04:16 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
haha nooo not meaning a negative tone.. perhaps I should put a question mark.. "I don't get it?"

So not "are you stupid"... but more like "I don't get it... I really don't think this is close to as good as bet bet bet.. so explain your reasoning on the c/c"

People can't post non-standard lines and not explain their thought process!

P4's - on some boards I would agree with you that c/c the last two streets could be ok. AdTh9h3c5d or some other coordinated board where he calls flop with all this draws, he bets turn with all his draws and now all this air that called flop gets to the river. That's just not at all the case on this board.

What worse hands on this board are you hoping are betting turn/river that aren't calling turn/river to our bets? Compared to his worse hands that are calling turn/river bets, that will check back the river.
Just seems to me like you sometimes don't put very much thought into the hands you are posting on, but still you have super strong opinions about how one play is best and how it's not even in the same universe close. You certainly don't always take into account that people by default have very different image at the tables than you do and that people down at 50nl play differently than at your stakes.

It should be perfectly obvious that b/f down here is NOT optimal against every single type of opponent regardless of our image.

To start with, this villain has an aggression factor of seven point five. Now unfortunately this sample size is way too small to justify extreme changes in play, but it is definitely something that makes this line closer in expectation to the standard bx3.

As I said I think betting yourself is better and without more reads than the ones given it's not very close either. However I do think it can be hard to see why that is, which is why I "get it", when you (say that you) don't. If you know what I'm saying? And I'm just saying.
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griffey24
Old 07-14-2010, 06:00 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 P4's - I definitely agree that I don't take enough time in considering how these hands might play differently at lower stakes.

Hi-lo - you're afraid of betting and getting raised on turn/river. What was your plan if you had been raised on the flop? It seems as though if he was going to raise as a bluff, that it would likely come on the flop here, as opposed to a more expensive turn/river bluff raise.
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I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
 
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HiLo
Old 07-15-2010, 06:32 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
Hi-lo - you're afraid of betting and getting raised on turn/river. What was your plan if you had been raised on the flop? It seems as though if he was going to raise as a bluff, that it would likely come on the flop here, as opposed to a more expensive turn/river bluff raise.
Dunno, I would think a flop raise on a dry board like this is mainly either a weaker ace trying to find out where he stands or a bluff because a set would be better raising the turn for more value. So 3 bet/fold seems to make sense v this opp? (and also gives another reason to make the original flop bet slightly smaller).

However if we 3 bet and he calls, what range do we put him on now? Strong enough to make us shut down completely?
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griffey24
Old 07-15-2010, 03:00 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiLo View Post
Dunno, I would think a flop raise on a dry board like this is mainly either a weaker ace trying to find out where he stands or a bluff because a set would be better raising the turn for more value. So 3 bet/fold seems to make sense v this opp? (and also gives another reason to make the original flop bet slightly smaller).

However if we 3 bet and he calls, what range do we put him on now? Strong enough to make us shut down completely?
I'd say that an aggro player raising on this flop is pretty polarized. He probably has a set/two pair, sometimes AQ, and air/bluffs. It's mostly a way ahead/way behind spot.

3betting in a way ahead/way behidn spot wouldn't be a great idea. He'll continue with the range that crushes you, and fold the bluffs. You're better off just calling if you want to continue. It's a dry enough board to call pretty safely OOP even as well.
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I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
 
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grindinginnj
Old 07-16-2010, 02:56 PM #15 (permalink)  
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I dont mind the line he took. They are both deep. If he bets the turn worse A might call might fold, middle pairs probably fold that floated 1 street. By checking he may get the weaker A to try to steal midddle pair to take a shot. With the last heart on the river villian might think it is a scred card and bet. I think i would have played it the same way.
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lancelott_
Old 07-16-2010, 10:04 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 basicly bet-fold 3 streets as a default (vs unknown w/o any reads or aggro dynamics)?
and CB flop + C/C turn/river sometimes to balance the times we have like KK/QQ here?
If the river is an Qh or Jh and he bombs like 74$ do you still call the river?
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