Poker Forum

Over 1,247,000 Posts!

REGISTER
Subscribe to FTR web feed
Already Registered?      Username:    Password:   Remember      Forgot Password

Poker Forum

  > 

Short-Handed NL Hold'em

  > 

50NL AJo 3bet cold called, cbet Qhigh flop?

  
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
minSim
Old 01-24-2009, 12:58 PM     Post subject: 50NL AJo 3bet cold called, cbet Qhigh flop? #1 (permalink)  
minSim's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
minSim
Villain was unknown at the time as I was at the table for only a few hands. (note; it's BB calling, not the preflop raiser)

Is this actually an easy flop c/f?
Are these 3bet coldcalls almost always like AQ/JJ/TT/KK/AA, possibly also 99/AJs/KQ/AK at lower stakes?

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer Game#24221372533

Hero ($50)
BB ($54.45)
UTG ($33.55)
CO ($17.20)
BTN ($49.25)

Dealt to Hero AJ
fold, fold, BTN raises to $2, Hero raises to $7, call, fold,

FLOP ($16) 4Q8
Hero bets $10, BB raises to $47.45, Hero folds,
Reply With Quote

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
jackvance
Old 01-24-2009, 01:22 PM #2 (permalink)  
jackvance's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Are these 3bet coldcalls almost always like AQ/JJ/TT/KK/AA, possibly also 99/AJs/KQ/AK at lower stakes?
Not always, I remember one hand where I called your 3bet with 46o and to my surprise you checked it down to the river so I bet you out there. But in general I agree with your range assessment, although the stronger part of that range can be 4betting. There are some loose players that call them with any crap they raised with but they're usually easy to spot..
Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
 
Reply With Quote
noble007
Old 01-24-2009, 03:04 PM #3 (permalink)  
noble007's Avatar
Flush

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 531
noble007
I think bet folding is fine at lower stakes vs unknown.
A few donkish players will call with pp or sc thinking that the button will come along too and somehow think this gives them implied odds to do it.

I hope a bet on the flop will fold out AK & maybe JJ.

(AA,KK,QQ,TT,AQ & AdKd will obv stay in.)
But there are 11 combos of AK(not AdKd) left & 3 combos of JJ left.
There are 3 combos of AA,6 combos of KK,9 combos of AQ, 3 combos of QQ, 3 combos of TT & 1 combo of AdKd

So I think you fold 14 combos and 25 combos stay in
or 14/39 or 36% of his range.
so 10 into 16
36 x he folds (+576) 64 x he calls/raises and you mostly lose (-640)
so -64/100 ev = -64 cents per hand

On second thought it looks kinda marginal now, but I still think it's better to err on the side of aggression in marginal spots. + there might be more crap in his range he might fold to.
Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
 
Reply With Quote
thizzSantaCruz
Old 01-24-2009, 08:27 PM #4 (permalink)  
Full House

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
thizzSantaCruz
Send a message via AIM to thizzSantaCruz
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
Quote:
Are these 3bet coldcalls almost always like AQ/JJ/TT/KK/AA, possibly also 99/AJs/KQ/AK at lower stakes?
Not always, I remember one hand where I called your 3bet with 46o and to my surprise you checked it down to the river so I bet you out there. But in general I agree with your range assessment, although the stronger part of that range can be 4betting. There are some loose players that call them with any crap they raised with but they're usually easy to spot..

lol this is so bad.
Flopping quads and boats like its my job
 
Reply With Quote
minSim
Old 01-25-2009, 03:10 PM #5 (permalink)  
minSim's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
minSim
Quote:
Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
Quote:
Are these 3bet coldcalls almost always like AQ/JJ/TT/KK/AA, possibly also 99/AJs/KQ/AK at lower stakes?
Not always, I remember one hand where I called your 3bet with 46o and to my surprise you checked it down to the river so I bet you out there. But in general I agree with your range assessment, although the stronger part of that range can be 4betting. There are some loose players that call them with any crap they raised with but they're usually easy to spot..

lol this is so bad.
You want to elaborate a bit?
Reply With Quote
mcatdog
Old 01-25-2009, 03:22 PM #6 (permalink)  
mcatdog's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
mcatdog
Does someone really need to elaborate on why calling 3bets with 46o is bad?
Reply With Quote
bigspenda73
Old 01-25-2009, 03:43 PM #7 (permalink)  
bigspenda73's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
bigspenda73 will become famous soon enoughbigspenda73 will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcatdog
Does someone really need to elaborate on why calling 3bets with 46o is bad?
It would seem like the kind of person that needs it explained to them wouldn't know what to do with the information anyways, so I'm going to go with no.
Reply With Quote
will641
Old 01-25-2009, 07:59 PM #8 (permalink)  
will641's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
will641 is on a distinguished road
 i think on the flop you could really go either way vs an unknown.
Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
 
Reply With Quote
minSim
Old 01-26-2009, 07:17 AM #9 (permalink)  
minSim's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
minSim
Quote:
Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
Not always, I remember one hand where I called your 3bet with 46o and to my surprise you checked it down to the river so I bet you out there. But in general I agree with your range assessment, although the stronger part of that range can be 4betting. There are some loose players that call them with any crap they raised with but they're usually easy to spot..
lol this is so bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcatdog
Does someone really need to elaborate on why calling 3bets with 46o is bad?
I actually meant the second part of Jackvance's reply as his whole post was quoted as being bad. But might have misunderstood something.
Reply With Quote
bjsaust
Old 01-26-2009, 09:08 AM #10 (permalink)  
bjsaust's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
bjsaust is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to bjsaust
This is the problem with 3-betting a hand like AJ for value in the SB.
Just playing to improve.
 
Reply With Quote
griffey24
Old 01-26-2009, 04:01 PM #11 (permalink)  
griffey24's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
griffey24 is on a distinguished road
 I think whether I bet this flop or not completely depends on the villain.

If villain is like 45/10 or some nonsense like that, then I definitely bet this flop. If he's some kind of reg, or tagg or something then I c/f.

Given he's unknown, I probably just c/f.
Reply With Quote
noble007
Old 01-26-2009, 04:13 PM #12 (permalink)  
noble007's Avatar
Flush

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 531
noble007
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
This is the problem with 3-betting a hand like AJ for value in the SB.
Maybe, but I think if the flop was A84, you c-bet and got shoved on - then it would demonstrate the problem of 3-betting a hand like AJ for value in the sb.

For me this is just about making a decision on a flop that you missed.
You'd be in the same situation if you 3bet a low pp or sc and missed this flop.

Personally I like 3betting a more linear range than most
but I'm sure that's a whole other post
Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
 
Reply With Quote
Silly String
Old 01-26-2009, 04:47 PM     Post subject: Re: 50NL AJo 3bet cold called, cbet Qhigh flop? #13 (permalink)  
Silly String's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
Silly String
Quote:
Originally Posted by minSim
Are these 3bet coldcalls almost always like AQ/JJ/TT/KK/AA, possibly also 99/AJs/KQ/AK at lower stakes?
Yes. In this situation, I c/f flop.
Keep in mind the deeper the effective stacks get people with some poker understanding will start calling w/ PPs to set hunt.
Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
 
Reply With Quote
bode
Old 01-26-2009, 04:58 PM #14 (permalink)  
bode's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
bode is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via Skype™ to bode
 dont 3bet AJ vs an unknown and you'll stay out of situations like this.
Quote:
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
 
Reply With Quote
bjsaust
Old 01-26-2009, 09:02 PM #15 (permalink)  
bjsaust's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
bjsaust is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to bjsaust
This is quite different from 3-betting a low PP or SC in the blinds and missing. It has to do with ranges and what we did by 3-betting in the first place.
Just playing to improve.
 
Reply With Quote
minSim
Old 01-27-2009, 02:09 PM #16 (permalink)  
minSim's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
minSim
Quote:
Originally Posted by bode
dont 3bet AJ vs an unknown and you'll stay out of situations like this.
I agree with this.

The downside is that with the playerpool at my stakes at Stars, usually 4/5 players at my tables are unknown when it comes to 3bet pots.
And with the general player at my stakes calling a shitload IP against a blinds 3bet, not 3betting AJ seems to be missing a lot of value when I often dominate villains AT/J8s+/KJo.

I think the standard player at my stakes plays something like this from LP:
PFR: +-25
Call 3bet: +- 60
4bet: KK+/sometimes AK.

While we can disagree about those numbers, don't you agree that 3betting AJ against those ranges is pretty standard?
Reply With Quote
kettleofish
Old 01-27-2009, 03:40 PM #17 (permalink)  
kettleofish's Avatar
Flush

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Helllllo Richard
Posts: 333
kettleofish
That's a pretty huge (and dangerous) generalisation to make tho, especially when you first sit down at a table.
There's only one system. Bet. Lose. Borrow. Steal. Lose. Take the drugs. Lose. Prison. Death.
 
Reply With Quote
GatorJH
Old 01-27-2009, 03:59 PM #18 (permalink)  
GatorJH's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
GatorJH will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to GatorJH
I think the key here minSim is that you JUST sat down at the table. I most certainly agree that at 50NL on Stars you will only have any decent amount of history for 1 MAYBE 2 players in any given session. However, I tend to play fairly tight (and therefore wouldn't 3bet AJo here) for the first half hour or so until I get a somewhat decent read on the players at the table.
Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
 
Reply With Quote
bjsaust
Old 01-28-2009, 12:29 AM #19 (permalink)  
bjsaust's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
bjsaust is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to bjsaust
Position matters.
Just playing to improve.
 
Reply With Quote
minSim
Old 01-28-2009, 06:59 AM #20 (permalink)  
minSim's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
minSim
Good points, I'll give it a go.

While it certainly deserves it's own thread, once we call preflop OOP;
do you guys like a c/c flop-lead turn-lead river line with QJ/KJ/AJ on a Jxxxx board, against non-overaggressive players ?
Reply With Quote
bjsaust
Old 01-28-2009, 07:54 AM #21 (permalink)  
bjsaust's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
bjsaust is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to bjsaust
I often take that kind of line with TPTK in a 3-bet pot on relatively dry flops.
Just playing to improve.
 
Reply With Quote
minSim
Old 01-28-2009, 07:55 AM #22 (permalink)  
minSim's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
minSim
Sorry, I meant that line a single raised pot, once we call OOP instead of 3bet.

I'll edit my post.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Latest Poker News
Bbickes Old 06-02-2012, 08:10 PM    Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
In an effort to perhaps keep players from moving to the new Revolution Network setup by the former Lock Poker, Merge Network has taken drastic steps to respond to their player base's requests to impro ...

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:40 AM.

Contact Us - Archive - Top

FTR Testimonials

All content
© FlopTurnRiver.com 		Advertising  |   Partners  |   Testimonials  |   T&C  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  |   Site Map  |   Search FTR

Full Tilt  |   Titan Poker  |   UltimateBet  |   Poker Stars  |   Ladbrokes Bonus  |   Sportsbook  |   Cake Poker  

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum
This is not a gambling website.