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szamvan
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01-06-2008, 01:03 PM
Post subject: 50NL - AA OOP
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: HUSNGs
Posts: 152
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
BB ($15.20)
UTG ($50)
MP ($89.05)
CO ($34.50)
Button ($92.10)
Hero ($83.40)
Preflop: Hero is SB with A , A .
1 fold, MP raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero raises to $5, 1 fold, MP raises to $13.75, Hero calls $8.75.
Flop: ($28) 8, 9 , 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $18, Hero calls $18.
Turn: ($64) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.
River: ($64) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $30, MP folds.
Final Pot: $64
C/R flop maybe?
Is the river bet-sizing OK? I thought that he would call that with a small overpair for sure, getting 1:3 pot odds. I think he had something like AK or AQ, and if so I couldn't extract much value from these.
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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you're 3bet size pf is too small. if you make it bigger, then his 4bet is bigger and you can get it all in easier. furthermore I want this allin pf, because I don't think he's folding after 4betting. (maybe now he is, because it's only 13,75 but when you make it bigger, his 4 bet is bigger and he can't fold it)
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szamvan
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: HUSNGs
Posts: 152
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Yeah I would usually 3-bet to 6$ but sometimes I vary my play a bit. I don't really like the 5-bet shove because its just too goddamn obvious. (With KK he is going broke anyways if an ace doesn't hit, with AK he can catch a piece of the flop and go broke while he might fold it PF, with QQ/JJ/TT he will probably lose a lot if it will be all unders while he would probably fold PF (except QQ), and there probably isn't anything else in his range if he is somewhat decent (maybe AQ but thats very unprobable because there are only two aces remaining in the deck and the 4-bet is quiet out of line)
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Where I am, I don't know, I'll never know, in the silence you don't know, you must go on, I can't go on, I'll go on.
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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sorry, missed both of you being deepstacked. But I think in that case you have to make an even bigger 3 bet if you want to vary and not a smaller(you're now giving him odds to call with any pp). I understand why you call the 4bet. At 50NL some players don't even have AK or QQ in their 4bet range, but since your both deep it might be the case here. the river betsize is fine (any lower and a reraise will have you wondering if it's a bluff). His range imo is really narrowed to JJ/AK and maybe TT
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szamvan
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: HUSNGs
Posts: 152
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Yeah I see your point about three-betting so I will try not to three-bet too small in the future. I thought that a 45$ river-bet may be more +EV because if he has an overpair then it would be very though for him to lay down, because my play looks pretty much like a bluff (C/C flop, check turn, bet river) with something like AK/AQ or even mid-hi PPs.
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Where I am, I don't know, I'll never know, in the silence you don't know, you must go on, I can't go on, I'll go on.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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I 3-bet to $7 here always. If you want to vary your play vary what you 3-bet with. Being OOP I 5-bet small here, I like to be the one finishing the betting preflop if I'm OOP. It's hard to get more than a c-bet out of him the way you played it unless he has QQ-KK which is likely paying you off anyway.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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your line might look like you're bluffing AK, but you're amount says value. if you want to make it look like a bluff I think you should bet more (45 looks like value too), something like potsize/shove.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Just 5bet pre; pretty much no-one ever folds after 4betting.
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szamvan
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: HUSNGs
Posts: 152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
Just 5bet pre; pretty much no-one ever folds after 4betting.
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I think I am giving away my hand that way, if I 5bet then he can be 99% sure that I have AA/KK while if I just call then he might go broke with a lot of hands.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BigPapi
your line might look like you're bluffing AK, but you're amount says value. if you want to make it look like a bluff I think you should bet more (45 looks like value too), something like potsize/shove.
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I've just realized that I have something like 50$ left here so basically I'm betting 30$ or shoving.
30$*x>50$*y where x is the probability that he calls the 30$ bet and y is the probability that he calls the shove, if the equation is true than betting 30$ is better.
x>1.67y
so he has to call the 30$ bet more than 1.67 times he calls the shove to make it more profitable, which is quiet unrealistic, so shoving is probably better. So I agree 
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Where I am, I don't know, I'll never know, in the silence you don't know, you must go on, I can't go on, I'll go on.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by szamvan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
Just 5bet pre; pretty much no-one ever folds after 4betting.
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I think I am giving away my hand that way, if I 5bet then he can be 99% sure that I have AA/KK while if I just call then he might go broke with a lot of hands. |
He's not 4betting without at least QQ and sometimes AKs. He's probably not folding either. I will definitely say that the size of your 3bet and his 4bet makes it awkward and closer than I thought though - most 50NL 4bets end up around the $20 mark making folding impossible.
I think you should definitely CRAI flop as played.
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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I like the line, (except 3-bet size), just C/R the flop all in.
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szamvan
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: HUSNGs
Posts: 152
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I tried to wait until the turn, when he might potfuck himself and cant fold to a CRAI.And if he doesnt hang himself then I may still get some value from overpairs on the river by vbetting because my line looks pretty weak then (C/C flop, check turn, bet river).
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Where I am, I don't know, I'll never know, in the silence you don't know, you must go on, I can't go on, I'll go on.
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szamvan
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: HUSNGs
Posts: 152
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So why is the flop CRAI better than my line?
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Where I am, I don't know, I'll never know, in the silence you don't know, you must go on, I can't go on, I'll go on.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by szamvan
So why is the flop CRAI better than my line?
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Because you'll start cacking yourself when a K or Q comes
Because you're not letting all the money go in when you have the best hand
He had AK there, but his range was AA, KK, QQ, AK. The money should've been all in at an early point in the hand.
To be completely honest I don't like any street there.
I'm not entirely sure I'm correct, but I think I'm 80% correct, I'd like to see your reasoning, learn about the game and that.
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Yeah I would usually 3-bet to 6$ but sometimes I vary my play a bit.
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WHY?!!! Your 3bet completely sucks. You want to get your opponent committed and if you make a real 3bet any 4bet he makes will make him more committed than if you don't.
Quote:
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I don't really like the 5-bet shove because its just too goddamn obvious.
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Fold preflop then, he'll never think you had AA! It's very likely a cooler situation and so you should do the right thing and get the money in ASAP.
Quote:
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(With KK he is going broke anyways if an ace doesn't hit, with AK he can catch a piece of the flop and go broke while he might fold it PF, with QQ/JJ/TT he will probably lose a lot if it will be all unders while he would probably fold PF
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The flop was all unders! Yet you still continued to slowplay!
What I'm getting at is that with your line you managed to get the most money you could out of the hand that was putting the least in the pot.
If your valuebet on the river gets called, then you know how you played the entire hand has been a mistake. DUCY?
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szamvan
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: HUSNGs
Posts: 152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
Quote:
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Originally Posted by szamvan
So why is the flop CRAI better than my line?
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Because you'll start cacking yourself when a K or Q comes
Because you're not letting all the money go in when you have the best hand
He had AK there, but his range was AA, KK, QQ, AK. The money should've been all in at an early point in the hand. |
Yeah I see. Thx for the explanation.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
To be completely honest I don't like any street there.
I'm not entirely sure I'm correct, but I think I'm 80% correct, I'd like to see your reasoning, learn about the game and that. |
lol
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
Quote:
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Yeah I would usually 3-bet to 6$ but sometimes I vary my play a bit.
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WHY?!!! Your 3bet completely sucks. You want to get your opponent committed and if you make a real 3bet any 4bet he makes will make him more committed than if you don't. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by szamvan
Yeah I see your point about three-betting so I will try not to three-bet too small in the future.
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but thanks for reinforcing
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
Quote:
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I don't really like the 5-bet shove because its just too goddamn obvious.
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Fold preflop then, he'll never think you had AA! It's very likely a cooler situation and so you should do the right thing and get the money in ASAP. |
see reasoning below.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
Quote:
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(With KK he is going broke anyways if an ace doesn't hit, with AK he can catch a piece of the flop and go broke while he might fold it PF, with QQ/JJ/TT he will probably lose a lot if it will be all unders while he would probably fold PF
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The flop was all unders! Yet you still continued to slowplay!
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yeah you have a point ))
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I understand the flop CRAI but still dont feel that the 5-bet shove PF is mandatory, maybe its just a matter of style :P
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Where I am, I don't know, I'll never know, in the silence you don't know, you must go on, I can't go on, I'll go on.
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