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sauce123
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02-26-2007, 12:19 AM
Post subject: 400nl- Tough (or easy?) riv decision- discuss
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
UTG ($533.50)
MP ($429)
CO ($655.60)
Button ($239.40)
Hero ($616)
BB ($400)
Preflop: Hero is SB with T , T .
1 fold, MP raises to $12, CO raises to $36, 1 fold, Hero calls $34, 1 fold, MP calls $24.
Flop: ($112) 7, 4 , T (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets $84, Hero calls $84, MP folds.
Turn: ($280) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.
River: ($280) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $535.6 (All-In)
Hero??
Villain is herb somethin or other who seems to be a lag, and a thinking player, though I havent played too many big pots with him.
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silu73
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Full House
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I would have raised the flop and led the turn. As played I have no idea where you are at? That's why I hardly ever slowplay my sets.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Call and NH. Very nice post. I'll put my two cents in after I get flamed for advocating it.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I c/bomb the turn, He pretty much is betting any hand here that we care about.
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nutsinho
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I would bet/push the flop.
When you just call preflop it looks much as much like u have 99/JJ/QQ as TT. A lead for like 1/2 pot would probably prompt a raise from his holdings that you are looking to stack. Depending on his raise size and your reads u can decide to call and check/push turn or just 3bet the flop all in.
When you check the flop and opp bets, raising looks extremely settish and calling is not optimal either because he is in position on a drawy board and will exercise pot control on many turn cards.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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I would bet/push the flop.
When you just call preflop it looks much as much like u have 99/JJ/QQ as TT. A lead for like 1/2 pot would probably prompt a raise from his holdings that you are looking to stack. Depending on his raise size and your reads u can decide to call and check/push turn or just 3bet the flop all in.
When you check the flop and opp bets, raising looks extremely settish and calling is not optimal either because he is in position on a drawy board and will exercise pot control on many turn cards.
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Agreed, however if sauce has a very laggy image (not quite sure, he is normally very laggy but opp may not know this), I like a flop c/r because it looks so much like a set. However, instead of half pot i like a 3/4ths to full pot lead, as if he doesn't raise it makes the pot deeper (and he's surely not folding this flop).
But how bout comment as played on river?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
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If the river is the only decision you're looking to analyze, I think it's a pretty ez fold (lol captain obvious) since his line matches so perfectly with a c-bet with AdKx that didn't want to get bet off of the turn. Obv he can be bluffing here and it would be a hero call if you made it.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
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bet/3bet all looks pretty good here considering how horrible the board is for any hand opp is going to want to play that isnt toally air.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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i think i agree with ISF that this is a call, interested in others' thoughts though
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Alexos
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I think river is a pretty easy fold as well. Yes it's a perfect card for villain to bluff after you check, but then again it's very likely he has AdKx. Overall, I just don't think this call is +ev, so I fold.
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sauce123
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Ok, all of you bet/3bettors out there... arent we losing a bet from AK AQ and how can this possibly be better than a check raise??
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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nutsinho
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
Ok, all of you bet/3bettors out there... arent we losing a small bet from AK AQ and how can this possibly be better than a check raise that may make him play his good hands very cautiously causing us to lose much bigger bets??
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[/b]
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Harry
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Full House
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I prefer a c/r on the flop.
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PSU Class of 2011 weeeeeeee!
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
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Also my std line on this flop is a check raise I did this to balance out the times when I C/C flop with JJ 99 and FD and cant stand a turn bet
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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mcatdog
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I don't see how leading the flop in a 3-way re-raised pot is anything other than an enormous show of strength. Probably fold river because a lot of good hands are in your range including TT and J J and he's still pushing for 2X pot. On the other hand you pretty much never have the nuts here.
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nutsinho
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
I don't see how leading the flop in a 3-way re-raised pot is anything other than an enormous show of strength. How would you play JJ-QQ in this hand then?
Probably fold river because a lot of good hands are in your range including TT and J J and he's still pushing for 2X pot. On the other hand you pretty much never have the nuts here. Opp is very clearly representing the nuts so its irrelevant what lesser hand we might have. |
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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mcatdog
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[quote="nutsinho"]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
How would you play JJ-QQ in this hand then?
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I'd check and see what happens and I sure wouldn't turn them into a bluff by leading for 3/4 pot.
Quote:
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Opp is very clearly representing the nuts so its irrelevant what lesser hand we might have
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Just because he's representing the nuts doesn't mean it's irrelevant what he thinks we have. A river overbet when our range has lots of missed draws and other garbage is clearly different from an overbet when our range has plenty of hands with good showdown value, and we should react to them differently.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
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Stop being so god damn tricky Sauce
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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What opp is reading a hand well enough to not bet an incredbly tempting semi bluff on the turn and is stupid enough to push a river when there's almost no hands that opp has played this way so far will call with (Unless opp knows sauce is willing to make hero calls, which is probably not the case, and even if this was the case suace's hand looks so weak im amazed opp wouldn't make a weaker value bet with an Ad)
Opp clearly has a hand with either a ton of SD value or absolutely none. And I feel like a hand with a ton of it is playing the river differently.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
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If villain is indeed good then he's unlikely to bet turn here since he doesn't wanna get raised off his higher flushdraw if he has one (and we just made a flush possibly).
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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What I just find odd about this hand is the conflict of a seemingly good villan (checking the turn) with making a seemingly donkish play (overpushing the river). This is clearly not how he plays it if he thinks we have a lower flush (which would seem very likely if this wasn't a reraised pot, because the only flush we could have would be A high, so he clearly couldn't put us on that.
This bet just looks way too much like a lagg realizing there is no way with the hand we have that we can call a huge overbet.
Question: Did he think before making the push? How long? How long in relation to the time it took to make most of his moves.
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gabe
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Moderator
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go allin on the flop, you have the nuts and people like their hands
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
go allin on the flop, you have the nuts and people like their hands
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I think we've decided that the flop is an easy decision...
Comments on river as played?
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sauce123
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i thnk most villains will bet AdKx on the turn as a semibluff as gettin C/R off it isnt a very bad thing.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
i think most villains will bet AdKx on the turn as a semibluff as they think getting C/R off it isnt a very bad thing or almost want to get it all in with such a strong draw.
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FYP
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
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if a villain wants to get all in on the turn wit a FD then sign me up to play him...
it was a quick push as were most of his moves
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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gabe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
go allin on the flop, you have the nuts and people like their hands
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I think we've decided that the flop is an easy decision...
Comments on river as played? |
check fold
river isn't ever a question, just cant call here
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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im way more likely to call a quick all in than a 5 seconds of thought-shove here
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
river isn't ever a question, just cant call here
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Exactly why we should call????
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gabe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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im way more likely to call a quick all in than a 5 seconds of thought-shove here
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there are 4 diamonds and pot odds suck, he could also be bluffing with a better hand
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
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How could he be bluffing with the best hand?? lay me out a scenario for that and I think this is a clear fold...
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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gabe
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Moderator
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if he had QQ, he would be bluffing to get you off a diamond, but he would have the best hand if called. same if he had AoXd (with low x) that he reraised with pf
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DaNutsInYoEye
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wtf? CR the flop. They obviously like their hands enough to raise and then 3-bet respectively PF then follow it up with a strong c-bet. I'd make it $25o then push any turn if called. I like a CR AI too and let an over pair think I have a flush draw.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
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Gabe, I can't believe a good villain would bluff with QQ to get me off of a diamond, that hand is gonna be good in a SD 75% plus of the time and he would also bet turn.
I think his bet is representing two things Adx or nothing. I think any other diamond hand (maybe even the ace) would vbet smaller and/or check as any diamond has a ton of showdown value here imo.
So what is his bet/check/shove representing? Perhaps a cleverly played AJoff with the Ad kind of hand, but what else? And why wouldn't villain semi bluff turn and or bet smaller on river with a strong flush.
Basically I don't understand y the villain you decribed Gabe would turn a hand with so much sd value into a bluff?
PS: I really respect and agree with most of ur posts so maybe im missing something fundamental here in this hand> Sauce
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
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75%? care to explain?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
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Ugh I definitely pulled that number out of my ass but what I was trying to get across is MOST of the time I think trip queens will be best. A flush is definitely in my range but when I call a re raise OOP we can discount suited connectors from my range entirely (as I would be raising AQs and AKs I think). That leaves 99-QQ as the majority of my range (though I dont know if villain knows this, and I may also call with other pairs as MP plays badly and CO is aggro.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
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And as with position here how many ppl in this forum can honestly say they turn top set into a bluff??
Im tired...
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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yeah its possible for him to be bluffing with a better hand but its not likely in this particular spot imo. At higher levels there is mor nth level thinking such that this is a clear fold, but i think theres an argument for a call against this guy
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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locks1018
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Straight
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You shouldve raised the flop. You have the nuts right now and you want a big pot. Also, if he as an overpair he's drawing slim and you want to get it in with the best of it. The check on the turn is weak because villian is representing a big pair. Unless he has QQ, its unlucky he turned a flush. You have to bet to see where your hand stands. On the river, I'm folding. There are 4 cards that beat your flush and its an overbet.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
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this is an easy fold IMO. Villain has to be bluffing >60% of the time to make this call, and while i could see him leveling you here, i dont think you will ever be good that much of the time.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by locks1018
On the river, I'm folding. There are 4 cards that beat your flush and its an overbet.
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hero doesnt have any flush, so there are 9 flushes that beat him.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
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flop is gross
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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my theory that the games really havn't gotten that much harder is being proven true by the day
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gabe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
Basically I don't understand y the villain you decribed Gabe would turn a hand with so much sd value into a bluff?
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because they want you to fold a better hand...
im not saying this is the case in this particular hand but its something to think about
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koolmoe
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
I don't see how leading the flop in a 3-way re-raised pot is anything other than an enormous show of strength.
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Isn't warm calling a threebet preflop from the worst position at the table already an enormous show of strength?
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Poker is freedom
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koolmoe
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I think his bet is representing two things Adx or nothing.
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I think you are at least twice as likely to see the Ad here as anything else, so I would fold.
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Poker is freedom
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I guess we need a sicker read on opp to make this call.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
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Ok well I tanked and called and he showed AK offsuit.
I'm a station.
In conclusion Gabe brings up a good point that against higher level opponents capable of bluffing a small flush or QQ this is an insta fold as I have terrible pot odds and a now terrible hand.
I still think that against aggro opponents my flop line is fine, not as a standard line but one to use a third of the time or less. Underrepping the nuts against a habitual 2nd barreler and semi bluffing player can't be that bad imo, as long as I think I have a good read on his thought process.
I also think that occasionally I should be bet/3betting this flop, with my standard and most +ev line being a flop checkraise.
Realize that my line here is not a check/call for pot control or anything of that kind, its to induce a large turn bet and get most of my opponent's stack in the pot on a draw or with a big pair drawing to 2 outs, I think some opponents may be capable of laying down a big pair to a C/R, shove line.
I thought his betting pattern in context of this player represented exactly one hand: a stone cold bluff. Call me crazy... Sauce.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
Ok well I tanked and called and he showed AK offsuit.
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offsuit.. as in AcKh or offsuit as in AdKc? =)
big difference!
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
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NO DIAMONDS!!! ship tha monies
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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wow, what a horrible call
no offense obviously
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