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Vi-Zer0Skill
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09-23-2007, 05:38 AM
Post subject: 400NL K-Qs
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#1 (permalink)
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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Villain has been playing fairly loose (27/20). Though he hasn't done anything exceptionally aggressive/spewy in the time i have played with him (~100 hands).
I feel that villain is holding a hand like 9-8 or MP+ FD enough that i should felt this hand once i c-bet the flop. Given that he raised my c-bet from UTG into 2 other players though, i think i need to discount those hands somewhat though. Should i felt the flop as played?
Is checking the flop an option - bet/folding the turn if checked around or calling a bet and bet/folding the turn? Do you prefer this line?
Hero: ($441 in chips)
Villain: ($901 in chips)
3 other players
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: [Qs Ks]
Hero: raises $12 to $16
Villain: calls $16
Player 1: calls $16
2 fold
*** FLOP *** [Qc 7c 6h]
Hero: bets $40
Villain: raises $80 to $120
Player 1: folds
Hero: raises $305 to $425 and is all-in
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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if you re going to continue with the hand I d suggest calling flop and doing your best to get it in on a non-club turn. 5 or T would be kinda shitty but meh
the big question to me is whether to lead blank turns or go for CRai and i think it's pretty close depending on villain's betting patterns. Usually I'd just pot the turn though.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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opp is isolating you here so id be inclined to think its a big hand rather than a draw because he shuts out the rest of the table.
Although we know people commonly just call the raise leading me to think his range is combo draws.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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I don't like the way i played this hand; particularly my 3bet.
I still wonder about check/calling the flop and bet/folding a blank turn. The way i see it TPGK/TK are kind of "middling strength hands". (2-2 - 5-5, 8-8 -J-J are "weak", 6-6, 7-7, Q-Q, K-K+ are "strong"). If i had Ac-Kc or 9c-8c i would definitely bet/3bet the flop, as well as with my "strong" hands. I would also bet/fold the flop with 2-2 - 5-5, 8-8 - J-J.
I want to make sure the range of hands i bet the flop is well balanced, but i also want to have some hands that i will check the flop with that i will also call a flop bet with, and TPGK/TK seem like good hands to do this with in this spot. Thoughts?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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just fold the flop.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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unless opp is just a spew tard.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
unless opp is just a spew tard.
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he is a good regular, i have found out. I didn't think he was very spewy at the time either, so yeah i think if i bet this flop it should be with the intention of folding. It was such a drawy flop though that without having time to think about it outside of the heat of the moment i ended up 3betting AI.
Do you like check/calling the flop better than bet/folding?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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Vi-Zero- love all ur posts/ur approach to thinking thru hands.
IMO- ur suspicion is correct, check calling flop is 100x better than bet/folding against most opponents.
however, this doesnt mean you should always check/call this flop. Id say you should check/bet KQs on this board about 50/50. and when you bet, you CAN fold, im guessing I fold about a third, call a third, and 3bet/call a third. i dont think these frequencies should be game theory based, more just timing tells, betting patterns, history etc. just realize ur OOP, with a marginal hand which is very likely ahead of our opp ranges. Our goal with these marginal hands is to do our best to minimize the value of position against our competent opponents and because position is soooo powerful in spots like this (specially with 100 betsish) we have to vary our play consciously.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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I think bet/fold is good against regulars you don't have history with or much info on. You set yourself up to be outplayed but such is life OOP. It's better than getting it in drawing dead a decent % of the time in this spot.
6-7s is a sizeable part of his range here as well.
If this guy has been playing back at you then I like just calling RR and shoving a blank turn.
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Family Cruise IMO
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
Vi-Zero- love all ur posts/ur approach to thinking thru hands.
IMO- ur suspicion is correct, check calling flop is 100x better than bet/folding against most opponents.
however, this doesnt mean you should always check/call this flop. Id say you should check/bet KQs on this board about 50/50. and when you bet, you CAN fold, im guessing I fold about a third, call a third, and 3bet/call a third. i dont think these frequencies should be game theory based, more just timing tells, betting patterns, history etc. just realize ur OOP, with a marginal hand which is very likely ahead of our opp ranges. Our goal with these marginal hands is to do our best to minimize the value of position against our competent opponents and because position is soooo powerful in spots like this (specially with 100 betsish) we have to vary our play consciously.
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if you c/c flop are you donking turn, or checking again?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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miffed- if im donking turn after check/calling flop, its with the intention of inducing him to shove with draws/air. so not usually.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
miffed- if im donking turn after check/calling flop, its with the intention of inducing him to shove with draws/air. so not usually.
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kthx.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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thanks for the compliment, and your response sauce. 
I understand the idea of varying our play in this spot based on how our opponent plays - i.e. there is no point in taking a passive line here if villain is very aggressive and will raise my c-bet with a wide range. I am happy that my idea of possibly taking a passive line in this spot wasn't a bad one.
Putting money in OOP with a hand that would be considered marginal against my opponents raising ranges has probably cost me the equivalent of several buy ins just in the last 20k hands! This is a great leak to have identified.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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