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jo
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01-26-2007, 04:30 PM
Post subject: 4-betting with JJ
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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Villain is tight, and a little on the passive side (26/10/1.6). However, he does seem to have picked up on the fact that I'm raising a lot, because he seems to be 3-betting me at a higher than normal frequency (although he could just be on a rush). Anyway, I decide to take a stand, not really expecting to be hugely ahead of his range, and expecting him to fold.
Instead he calls, and then I hit the flop pretty hard. My initial instinct is simply to push, given the size of the pot by now. But, looking back on it, I 'm not sure that it was the right move. It's the 4-bet call that has me confused. Other than QQ (which I'm losing my stack to), what could call my flop push, that wouldn't have simply gone all-in preflop? What do you guys think?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
BB ($273.10)
Hero ($224.25)
MP ($235)
CO ($296.30)
Button ($114)
SB ($102.10)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with J , J .
Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, CO raises to $18, 3 folds, Hero raises to $60, CO calls $42.
Flop: ($123) 2, J , Q (2 players)
Hero bets $164.25 (All-In)
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Regulator_
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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He was acting like he had a monster.. you only have the fifth best pokerhand..
unless he's one of those guys that enjoys seeing the flop, no matter the price, you better fold..
he seemed a bit too eager, like you said. You should have seen where he took it.. instead of making the innitial move.
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Bet the pot every time.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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I like just calling this pre. If u had AQ or something then fourbet, but i think theres too much value in flatting JJ here. I probably bet 80-90 on the flop.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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Just call preflop. 4-betting JJ (especially here) sucks, unless villian is extremely bad or you have specific history with that villain. Flop push is fine, checking is also fine.
Quote:
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Other than QQ (which I'm losing my stack to), what could call my flop push, that wouldn't have simply gone all-in preflop?
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aa/kk/akc. These hands are never folding on flop.
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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Regulator: I'm not folding this hand anywhere.
Renton: Yeah, after the fact that's what I was thinking about. AA/KK/AQ may all try something against a c-bet, but not against a push.
He folded and I took it down, hence the second-guessing.
I also thought about a c-r all-in, but I figured a free card was too dangerous with the T completing AK, and a flush draw out there.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Don't fourbet JJ
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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if you miss that flop you better be checking it too.
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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IowaSkins: OK
Massimo: I didn't expect to be seeing a flop 
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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villain has AK/QQ lots of the time here. Also it'll be 1010 and maybe AQs if he thinks you're completely out of line. Of course he/she could be trapping w AA/KK... But that's unlikely since you like your hand so much that you look like you want to get it all in. SO AA/KK usually shoves over the top.
Vs those hands there's nothing wrong with a push. The pot is big and with all the possible draws AA/KK have a very tough time folding. If villain has AK you're unlikely to get more money anyways.
nh. FWIW villain will put you on AA/KK almost all the time here, esp since both J and Q flopped.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jo
Massimo: I didn't expect to be seeing a flop |
This is why JJ is such a bad hand to 4-bet. It is v tough to get weaker hands to pay you off and it is almost impossible to get better hands to fold. Why not 4-bet garbage instead if your intent is to take it down preflop? When you 4-bet JJ you basically throw all the value that hand has (which is a lot) down the drain.
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