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Renton
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09-20-2006, 05:33 AM
Post subject: 3rd nuts in reraised pot with deep stacks.
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Villain is a decent lag. I got two questions here.
First, what is the best line for max value?
I figure its either:
1. Lead weak and almost always get raised, then reraise and look to call a push.
2. Lead strong and probably get called, then check raise the turn.
3. Check raise flop.
My other question: are stacks deep enough to worry at all about AQ or KK? Or are we getting stacked in that scenario?
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
SB ($230.35)
Hero ($540.62)
UTG ($188.40)
MP ($236.70)
CO ($431.70)
Button ($182.90)
Preflop: Hero is BB with J , J . SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, MP raises to $4, CO raises to $15, 2 folds, Hero calls $13, UTG calls $13, MP calls $11.
Flop: ($61) K , T , J (4 players)
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elipsesjeff
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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I check/raise flop pretty hard, although you could potentially do all three with some regularity. I would really hate for the Q of diamonds to come on the turn though.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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I like to lead out here for 3/4 of the pot. His reraise is committing him and you can get it all in right away and not second guess yourself.
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Family Cruise IMO
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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1) If you think villain will smooth-call a strong lead, then weak lead seems best in order to get most money possible in on flop.
2) I would definitely worry about KK but fuck it. That's weak. He may even play QQ very aggressively in this spot, esp w Qd.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Check-raising is a bad play, in my opinion. Opponent probably has A-A, K-K, Q-Q, T-T, 9-9, A-Q or A-K. Check-raising encourages him to slow down or fold with A-A, Q-Q, 9-9 or A-K (hands we beat), and put us all-in with K-K, T-T, or A-Q. We've basically encouraged our opponent to play optimally with everything but T-T.
Also, if his reraising ranges consists mostly of the aforementioned hands (I don't suspect he's reraising many weak hands against a probable bad player), the nuts is actually his most likely holding on the flop (aces and queens are completely live in the deck, so this hand is dealt most frequently), particularly if he shows strength. I personally think this is a spot where you might want to proceed cautiously if opponent shows a lot of strength. Sets are nice, but this is a very dangerous board for our hand given the previous action.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
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1) If opponent is LAG I think I rr pf. Lots of decent players will raise pf weak here to isolate and cbet the minraise idiot. I know I do anyway. It's in our intrests to cut the field down especially because if we just call then we can let the minraiser in cheap with more overcards to beat us.
Post flop I think a c/r is not a good line. Firstly because if the CO missed the flop he will be unlikely to cbet into 3 opponents on this board. Yoy could end up being 4 players to a turn that you really don't want to see. Secondly check/raising has the least ammount of opertunity for trapping dead money. If you check around to the CO and he bets, you are next to acta nd a raise will blow all the other players out before they get a chance to lose some money.
My favourite line is to lead for about $40. Best case scenario you will get called by UTG of MP with a draw and then raised by the CO with an AKish hand. Then you can reraise, trap the dead money and as much money as possible in the middle fast on this scary board. Worst case scenario, we cut off drawing odds as best as possible, reduce the size of the field and see the turn with an opponent we are ahead off. I'm not sure how I proceed from there but I would probably just bet out because of the draw heavy nature of the board.
2) I think we have to play the hand as if we have the nuts and just suck out if we're behind. This board is likely to generate too much action to be able to tell the difference between the nuts and a hand we can beat.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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id lead but i dont think checking is bad either. KK is a very real possibility but then you have middle set with deepstacks and i wouldnt argue stacking off like that is really that bad, it might be if AQ is in range.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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this is te type of flop you need to lead for alot
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Here's one alternative*
What about leading for $20? It makes it look like you want a cheap turn. If reraised then push. It may still look like you are on a draw and are willing to gambool. You do run the risk of letting them just call but that is unlikely on this board if they caught any piece. If they do happen to call, I push any turn that doesn't help a draw. Playing a set this way seems odd and that's why it just may work.
*I might be talking out my @ss right now
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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ok how about the second question
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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I guess my "alernative" is what you list as option 1. I lost sight of that.
When you play JJ, you hope to hit a set to stack somebody. You better have an amazing read to lay it down (or play it cautiously) when you hit. If CO is Villain and you say he is a decent lag, then his range is large enough to pay off if he has KK. If he has AQ, you still have a redraw. I don't see any way to get away from this hand unless you get to the turn and a draw completes. Even then you would have a redraw and want to see a river if possible.
I know what you are saying about deep stacks here. When you push into the nuts here you feel like uber-donk. When you win, it seems like you played the hand the right way even if you suck out. It's a high variance play that I think your bankroll can handle.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
ok how about the second question
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depends on how the flop action goes, i would probably lead turn again though because i dont want AK/QQ getting a freecard
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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OK
I led for 20 and got raised to 65. What is my next play?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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you lead for 1/3 of pot...why
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
you lead for 1/3 of pot...why
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
First, what is the best line for max value?
I figure its either:
1. Lead weak and almost always get raised, then reraise and look to call a push.
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Maybe leading weak wasn't the best play. My thoughts were to try to get all in on the flop and this seemed like the best way. Getting all in on the flop insures the most action when I have the best hand (incase scare cards fall on the turn, which is VERY possible given this board), and the most equity when I am up against the nuts. I told myself when i saw this flop that I wasn't folding no matter the flop action. My question is, "Is it wrong to completely commit to getting stacked on this flop, given the depth of stacks?" Obviously with 100bb this is a no-brainer.
If I lead strong I run the risk of just getting called and having to deal with an awkward turn card out of position. If i lead weak I think he almost has to raise, no matter what he has.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
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I'm not sure you want to see all five cards here. I'm leading the flop strong to give myself more than one way to win this. As played, you led weak to get raised...so reraise/push.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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bump plz
I wanna make sure that its ok to get stacked here.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
bump plz
I wanna make sure that its ok to get stacked here.
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Haha, thats funny. I think you should never feel bad about getting stacked with a set.
Thanks for telling me politely that check/raising sucks balls here. I'm guessing leading the flop is usually best in these situations, although I knew that at one point.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: Arlington, VA
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Did anyone notice that they're two buy-ins deep? Getting stacked here is actually very bad.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Did anyone notice that they're two buy-ins deep? Getting stacked here is actually very bad.
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wrong
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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lol. gabe : plz get to the point with your post, ok? All this tip-toeing around what you really want to say...
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Here's my justification for getting stacked:
KK, TT, AQ, AK diamond, KQ diamond, sometimes QQ, sometimes AA, and everynow and then AK are all getting all in with me on this flop. That range gives me between 40-45% equity in the pot. By the time I find out I'm probably beat, I am getting the right price to push, even for two buyins.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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I agree Renton.
That's why I bet low and hope (very likely) to get reraised so I can push over. I'm too dumb to get any more info about his hand by checking or betting more.
I'm still trying to hash out gabe's suggestion (bet full pot on flop?). Here I go:
If he calls, do you really have that much more info? Maybe you can discount KK/TT a little more if he just calls. That leaves us with AQ and a bunch of hands we are crushing. If the turn is a blank (somehow) wtf do you do? Any more money we put in will make it tough to get away.
If he reraises (no push) the flop, I guess you could fold since his range will be close to KK/TT/AQ and you only beat TT. I'm not even sure if this makes sense.
If he pushes your flop PSB you don't really learn much. A decent lag knows to use FE in combination with a strong draw to make pushing (mixed with when he has a set) a +EV play.
Back to my original play. Get it allin on the flop and hope no KK or to suck out on AQ.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
I'm still trying to hash out gabe's suggestion (bet full pot on flop?). Here I go:
If he calls, do you really have that much more info? Maybe you can discount KK/TT a little more if he just calls. That leaves us with AQ and a bunch of hands we are crushing. If the turn is a blank (somehow) wtf do you do? Any more money we put in will make it tough to get away.
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betting close to full pot (truth is i would probably bet at least 3/4, but not necessarily full pot) isn't designed to give you info. its designed to build the because of the awesome strength of your hand.
the only info you are worried about is what they glean from your actions. you want them to think you have a pair so they will call you down with a perceived better pair. weak leading then overbet pushing is not the way to do this on this type of board. i might weak lead if the board had less draws on it (because a weak lead would make sure we saw a turn, and my action wouldnt get killed by many cards like it would on this board), and then my c/r turn allin would be closed to pot sized.
with that said, i dont think c/ring this flop is bad either, but leading in this spot has advantages. when you have a big hand and you dont have relative position, you want to trap the field (in this case its only 1 person) between you and the PFR. like if MP had AK, CO had air, if you both check to CO who bets and you raise, MP folds AK alot there unless they are huge fish. if you lead they might even call with something like QJs just because they didnt factor in a person behind them.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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When you lead for 3/4 into 3 people when you aren't the preflop raiser, you are showing huge strength. I doubt Hero ever does this without a big hand.
I think a weak lead gets raised here 90% of the time which will bloat the pot more than a 3/4 pot lead (anyone who just calls this bet should probably move down to 100NL). Anyone who catches TP or better is going to raise this especially since it looks like you are seeking a cheap turn.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Did anyone notice that they're two buy-ins deep? Getting stacked here is actually very bad.
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On the other hand the pot is already a third of a buy-in.
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alias2211
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: U, S and A!!!
Posts: 469
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great explanation gabe. i really think this has to be the default play to keep in mind when you're in this spot.
watch that WPP rating though. you went up like 4% in that single post.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
When you lead for 3/4 into 3 people when you aren't the preflop raiser, you are showing huge strength.
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checkraising a preflop reraiser shows even more.....
Quote:
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I think a weak lead gets raised here 90% of the time which will bloat the pot more than a 3/4 pot lead (anyone who just calls this bet should probably move down to 100NL). Anyone who catches TP or better is going to raise this especially since it looks like you are seeking a cheap turn
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yea youre right, they usually do raise the weak lead. but that makes it harder for them to go broke with AA or AK here. if we bet strong they arent just going to fold, they are calling us down, which is what we want to happen when we bet so large. if they do raise its going to be allin, which is fine too.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by alias2211
watch that WPP rating though. you went up like 4% in that single post.
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 I was thinking the same thing.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Gabe that post above is one of the better line-justifications I've seen a long long time of FTR vnh.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by alias2211
watch that WPP rating though. you went up like 4% in that single post.
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I was thinking the same thing. |
its OK, i'm gonna PM xianti and ask him not to count any of my posts that are seperated into paragraphs
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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 I already explained all that.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I already explained all that. |
haha
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scarface737
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: sunnyvale, california
Posts: 37
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u beat too many hands u cant lay that down
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