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Fnord
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03-18-2004, 08:59 AM
Post subject: 3 way and heads up strat?
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Any suggestions or help in playing late in a tournament with sane blinds? Particularly 3 way and heads up, as these seem to be my biggest weaknesses now that my game in the 4-5 player range is getting better.
Just finished 2nd in a 14 person tournament at the work game. I picked my moment and took out 3rd place keeping the tall stack from having too much on me (I was 2:1 at worst.) But I'm certain I missed value with my hands 3 way. Then heads up I got creamed. I knew he was running me over, but figured my best option was to wait a bit and turn it around.
It went like this....
Start with button
Raised from SB, fold my rags
Surrender the SB with rags
Raise from SB, fold my rags
Raised with KXo from the SB, he folded
Raised from SB, called with 69o (second best hand I'd seen heads up.)
Flop came pair of 7s, rag, 2 suited. He checked, I went all-in (figured he'd call me the second time around since I had enough chips for him to laydown a bust hand.) He made a crying call with a flush draw (more than I put him on) via K8s or KTs and made his hand on the turn.
Overall, a great finish given that 1/2 the field consisted of regulars at the B&M NL tournies and my lack of offline experience.
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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The last three is always tough.
I won't limp in, I'll always raise. If i've got the large stack, I may even raise from the big blind with complete rags to try and win the pot right there.
Bet/Raise with second pair or better.
I like to raise from the small blind with Any decent hand. This is best done if hte BB is tight and folding alot  (yes, obvious i know)
Raise Ax, any pairs, 2 over cards, any Qx better suited cards.. even nice suited connectors will get a bump in my heads up game.
No limping allowed.
Basicly Raise anything that has Any strength, or nut possibilities.
oh, and fold when you know your beat 
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Ragingguitarist18
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 235
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mikes right, raise as much as possible, as for heads up, you can't just constantly be folding, hell grind you out. You have to take a stand and raise with crap, you just have to do it. I guarantee he was raising you with crap a good amount of times, he must have experience with heads up play.
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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I won 3/5 SNG tournies last week.
places second in the 4th..
and went out first in the ohter one.. I flopped a set and made a boat on the turn.. My boat made his quads oops
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragingguitarist18
mikes right, raise as much as possible, as for heads up, you can't just constantly be folding, hell grind you out. You have to take a stand and raise with crap, you just have to do it. I guarantee he was raising you with crap a good amount of times, he must have experience with heads up play.
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I figured that. But when and how do you take a stand? I think those other hands were like 34o, 82o, J2o. I figured I was pushing it already with the way I played 69o.
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toekneechin
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 88
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most of it depends on the player. If they're tight, then I raise most of the time and fold if reraised, unless I have something (A,K,Q or pockets). If theyre aggressive, I'll fold when I pick up rags on the small blind and go all in when they raise me on the big blind.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by toekneechin
most of it depends on the player. If they're tight, then I raise most of the time and fold if reraised, unless I have something (A,K,Q or pockets). If theyre aggressive, I'll fold when I pick up rags on the small blind and go all in when they raise me on the big blind.
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With anything? What's the quality bar for heads up?
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toekneechin
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 88
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I've read somewhere that any face card, two suited, or pocket is good enough for all in. The thing I like to remember is that they only have better cards than you half the time (duh) so that helps me justify going all in with something like 75 off suit. Personally, I believe that a large portion of heads up is just plain luck. Unless the other person is extremely tight, most of the time it comes to a coin flip. Especially online where you can't get any sort of tell on the person. I've won games where they had 5 times as many chips as I did and I've lost games where I've had 5 times as many chips as they did. One thing NOT to do is to want to win so bad that you're unable to make ridiculous calls.
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Ragingguitarist18
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 235
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a lot of people think when it gets short handed that its pure luck on who wins, but really thats because they don't play the player, they depend too much on the cards. You ever watch the wpt championship with kirill gerasimov heads up? I think one hand he had 4-6 offsuit, all the cards were out, he made no pair, nothing. He moved all in and won. Thats the type of courage you need, you need to be very aggressive or just forget it. Probably didn't hurt that he won the european heads up tournament either.
Fnord, raising with just about anything isn't a bad strategy in heads up. Many times in the sit and go tourneys i raise with crap like 8-3 offsuit and they fold, and then theyll make the common mistake of folding from the small blind waiting for the good hand and by the time they do get it, theyll have so few chips it doesn't matter anymore. Sometimes Ill even reraise them back all in with a hand like that if i think theyre not holding a strong hand, sure sometimes ill be wrong and run into A-K or something, but you have to take risks heads up.
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I figured I was pushing it already with the way I played 69o.
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You were pushing it with 69o Actually alot of people will play that hand just because of the sexual meaning behind "69".
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
What's the quality bar for heads up?
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I haven't found a playbook for heads up. Thats why I think maniac players do well heads up. They aren't afraid to take the risks with mid/low hands.
My main concern with heads up is that I'M the one controlling the table. I'm setting the raises / re-raises.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mike4066
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I figured I was pushing it already with the way I played 69o.
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You were pushing it with 69o Actually alot of people will play that hand just because of the sexual meaning behind "69". |
Lol, yeah I wasn't playing dinner for two because of that. It just seemed like a better hand than the J2, 83, etc. I had been folding and it was time to make a stand. 2-gap and at least both ranks beat a baby pocket pair. Although I ought to check out the domination chart for heads up...
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Ragingguitarist18
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 235
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speaking of heads up play, are there any tables at party poker or ultimatebet just for heads up action?
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jmrogers7
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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I know UB has heads-up $5 + $0.25 sit 'n' gos. I'll check and see if they have any head's up ring games for ya.
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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nemofromuscl
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 46
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Does anyone have any strategy for playing low pockets in heads up/ 3 ways? Most of what i play is heads up or pretty short handed, and I'm moving into online bigger tables, but i still play a lot of short handed and I dont exactly know if I should go all in with pocket 5s, raise small and try to bluff him out when 3 overs come out on the flop, or what. The payoff for catching trips is probably going to be a lot less heads up, and going all in probably facing two overs is a coin flip, and its hard to keep calling when the flop is j 6 T or something, it seems like you cant really win with these hands. Any advice?
Thanks, conor
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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Hi,
In a three way if I'm first in I'm pushing all in with a pair of fives, if someone else is already all in then i'm folding (unless its a short stack) as just two overcards turns the SD into a "coin flip". Allthough you have a slight advantage 53%:47%.
The nightmare is running into a higher PP, but you can't worry about this to much in a 3-way :P
In heads up you you should call an all in, as long as your opponent hasn't been folding repeatedly looking for some big cards. You are hoping he has a split high card i.e. A2.
Hope this helps.
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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O i forgot to add the reason you move all in is because a min raise will be called and unless you flop a set you are probably going to be bullied out by the scary flop. Moving all in, there is a good chance everyone will fold (this is actually what you want) and if you are called you will still win half the time.
So if everyone fold 80% of the time and when called you win 50% of the time. You win :
=(20%*50%)+80%=90% of the time
I play at PP BTW
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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