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minSim
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04-24-2008, 05:25 PM
Post subject: 3-bet call / bluff raise flop
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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I only had a couple of hands against villain, something like 30, but he had 3-bet me BTNvsBB a few times already and seemed very aggro overall.
I don't really like my preflop call, but with the intention of raising tons of flops against a wide range I think it's not horrible...is it?
I am wondering if a dry board or a 2 tone one is better to bluff raise, as villains call/shoving range is larger on a 2 tone board. Any comments on that?
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
MP ($25.91)
Hero ($24.65)
SB ($12.85)
BB ($42.76)
UTG ($9.14)
Preflop: Hero is Button with J , K .
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, BB raises to $3.375, Hero calls $2.50.
Flop: ($7.10) 5 , 2, Q (2 players)
BB bets $4.5, Hero raises to $13
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IowaSkinsFan
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04-24-2008, 05:50 PM
Post subject: Re: 3-bet call / bluff raise flop
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#2 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
I only had a couple of hands against villain, something like 30, but he had 3-bet me BTNvsBB a few times already and seemed very aggro overall.
I don't really like my preflop call, but with the intention of raising tons of flops against a wide range I think it's not horrible...is it?
I am wondering if a dry board or a 2 tone one is better to bluff raise, as villains call/shoving range is larger on a 2 tone board. Any comments on that?
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
MP ($25.91)
Hero ($24.65)
SB ($12.85)
BB ($42.76)
UTG ($9.14)
Preflop: Hero is Button with J , K .
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, BB raises to $3.375, Hero calls $2.50.
Flop: ($7.10) 5 , 2 , Q (2 players)
BB bets $4.5, Hero raises to $13 |
The q52 flop is a good flop overall to make this sort of raise, because opps range is going to be pretty weak on a spread out board. Q isn't the best of high cards because AQ/KQ hit and AK/AQ/KQ are the most common unpaired hole cards that are threebet. This board is decent for your range if you have a tight image.
Calling pre is fine in position. But note, if you're not raising light on the button, don't feel inclined to extend your calling range to threebets very much.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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i'd make it like 11.25
also i see no reason to make pf calls like this at 25nl.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
i'd make it like 11.25
also i see no reason to make pf calls like this at 25nl.
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If opp is threebetting as much as minsim says than KJ is straight value.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Well not straight value but I think it's a value call.
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Silly String
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04-24-2008, 09:21 PM
Post subject: Re: 3-bet call / bluff raise flop
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#6 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
BB raises to $3.375
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Fold Villain is super user as evidenced by his super cool raise to the half penny.
Seriously though, I fold pre, but you covered that. I would rather fight back with KQo+, 77+, or suited broadways. Maybe I'm too nitty in these situations.
As played I like the flop raise given meta & read. I would like more history & to know how loose this guy is in general before playing back at him.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Well not straight value but I think it's a value call.
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most players at 25nl are gonna have a ton of trouble winning money with KJo to a 3bet, regardless of how light of a range he has (no offense op)
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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I agree with renton here. I'd much rather pick a hand that has slightly better equity against his range like 87s. It's going to be much easier for you to play postflop as well and you can still raise lots of flops with some equity.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by meeloche
I agree with renton here. I'd much rather pick a hand that has slightly better equity against his range like 87s. It's going to be much easier for you to play postflop as well and you can still raise lots of flops with some equity.
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Small suited connectors have horrible equity against any range, that's not the reason you play them.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.676% 67.29% 00.38% 1133814096 6469500.00 { 77+, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 32.324% 31.94% 00.38% 538154040 6469500.00 { KJo }
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 68.193% 67.90% 00.30% 418542264 1818696.00 { 77+, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 31.807% 31.51% 00.30% 194249784 1818696.00 { 87s }
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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mcat i know you were arguing the semantics of what meeloche was saying, however 87s is going to see a lot more shovable flops than KJo. It's pot equity vs his range is kinda irrelevant tbh.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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How light are you shoving 87s than Renton?
I.e. is a BDFD with BDSD on a non A/K flop enough?
Are you calling a A8x flop?
Are you shoving a Asxsx flop?
With KJ I'm more or less shoving any non A/K/J flop, calling a K and J high flop and likely folding to most turn shoves without improving.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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yes you are always calling at least when u flop a pair. Also any pair plus gutshot is a good shove candidate. Str8 draws / flush draws obviously auto shove.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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What about just a gutshot, or just a bdfd?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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not enough
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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I wouldn't say a micro 3 bet range is that wide mcat. Against a tight 3 bet range 87s is going to have slightly better equity than KJo.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 27.860% 27.76% 00.10% 1059254784 3927828.00 { 87s }
Hand 1: 47.850% 47.52% 00.33% 1813593444 12435042.00 { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 24.290% 23.96% 00.33% 914532996 12435042.00 { KJo }
The more important thing is its going to be much easier to play postflop than KJo. Best case postflop with KJ is going to be a bluff catcher at best.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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But if his 3-bet range is only 5% then it's a bad idea to call with either of these hands. If I felt it necessary to make this pre-flop call with KJo it'd be because this guy's 3-bet range was wide enough, I'd almost always want to go with it if I flopped a pair. That's not a plan that'll work with 87s.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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meeloche you did the equity calculation wrong. 87s may have more equity in a 3way pot but i think it's unlikely it has more equity heads up. Either way I think it's irrelevant because of reverse implied odds being much more of an issue with kjo.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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The reverse implied odds are the biggest factor in hand selection if you chose to call 3 bets at micro stakes imo. Personally i don't call a lot of 3 bets cause I like to 4 bet. I also wouldn't recommend calling many 3 bets but if you have to do it like op asked i would rather do it with a sc type hand than an unsuited broadway.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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his rr size looks like a tag type, so i think it's an ok play, especially if he c-bets everything. it's good to show him you're tricky and not going to be pushed off hands so easy.
also 87s doesn't have more equity, it's just a better hand for bluff raising flops, for villain's who c-bet too much but need top pair type hands to get all in.
but 87s is a big dog to 99+...KJ has better equity vs those hands, and even when KJ is dominated by AK or KQ, you both miss the flop often, especially when you have the K blocker, and you should win most of those times with position and reads.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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I still prefer a small suited connector hand to KJo here. Against this guy it's gonna be hard not to stack off when we hit a pair and we're gonna be dominated a lot when we do.
I think the value in calling here pre is mostly to take it down postflop with a bluff-raise or float, so 67s is similar to KJo in that regard, but at least we wont be dominated with 67s when we do decide to go with it.
Also villain will own us very badly if he 3bets a polarized range and we're calling with KJo.
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