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ATOTHEC101
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10-28-2009, 10:28 PM
Post subject: 3-6, tough spot hu deep.
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
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This is the start of a 3/6 hu deep ante table on tilt. Villain is a soldish reg playing 25/21/3.6 with a 63 % fold to 3 bet over a decent sample.
History wise he's definitely gotten the better of me on several occasions, looking through my db I've never seen him show it down vs me in a big pot with a bluff, though that's def not to say he can't have one. He probably views me a solid reg who does have the tendency to turn into a bit of a cs vs him. So what should I do in this hand, just feels like I'm going to get owned every time.
The problem with the turn is that I wouldn't float the flop with ace high unless I had aa,a5,a4,a3 etc, so he can barrel all his sets and bluffs with my range mainly consisting of 1 pair hands that are going to hate life, I do have some 6x's but not a huge amount.
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $6.00 BB (2 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (BB) ($1230.50)
SB ($1249)
Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , Q
SB bets $15, Hero raises to $60, SB calls $45
Flop: ($122) 5 , 4, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $80, SB raises to $181, Hero calls $101
Turn: ($484) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets $273,
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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The first thing that comes to mind is jamming turn as a bluff but I dunno how I feel about that. Gonna think more then come back.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
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kinda gross, i just c/fold the turn.
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Family Cruise IMO
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by meeloche
The first thing that comes to mind is jamming turn as a bluff but I dunno how I feel about that. Gonna think more then come back.
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i suck with numbers but i think 200 bb deep that bluff would have to work a hell of a lot to be profitable and i'm not sure it's better than just c/calling because if he doesn't have the nuts we're usually good no? (wouldn't he check back sets and two pairs in pos here a lot?).
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Family Cruise IMO
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
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I think its definitely possible that he thinks you can call this flop with AQ/AK. I wouldn't be suprised if thats mostly what he thinks you have. I'd c/f.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Ok yeah I don't think a c/jam is that great. It's pretty hard for him to have an ace and the fact that he could check back sets is a pretty good reason not to c/jam. The fact that he views you as stationy means I don't think he's gonna be bluffing you much in big pots so c/f turn seems good.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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i might be done with the hand on the flop
i d almost certainly fold the turn
i d bluff shove with any hand that had a 7 in it
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
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I posted this hand on 2+2 also and the guy who I played the hand against posted his thoughts, see how this influences your decision:
'I thought you'd most likely 3bet the flop smallish with Sets/2Pairs to induce spew/shoves from draws and from time to time as a pure bluff, as I don't rep too many made hands by raising the flop.
Therefore I viewed your range weighted heavily to TT+, mixed with stuff like A3s/76s/65s/66-99
I had no idea how you'd play any other Ax there, but I figured you probably wouldn't bet/call the flop with it too often (from time to time Axs with BDFD) as almost no turn card improves you. More likely a mix of b/f, c/c (esp A5/A4), c/f.
I expected a turn-c/r close to 0% of the time and I wasn't sure if you'd fold TT-KK to a turnbet, but probably to a turnbet+rivershove.'
fyi his thoughts are fairly accurate though I wouldn't 3 bet any nut hands/sets on the flop and would mostly just call the raise with them and with ak/aq I would generally bet/fold or c/c the flop, balancing this by c/cing with bigger pairs on occasion which I definitely considered here due to the dynamic we had created, i.e. I had a feeling he was going to raise my c bet and I'd have a tough time of it.The main point being I wouldn't bet/call with ak/aq, which kind of gives him impunity to continue barrelling with all his sets and bluffs thus making this spot difficult, I don't feel there's much I can do but to c/f the turn.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
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pozzeeeeshun
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
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lots of leaks ITT
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
lots of leaks ITT
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Elaborate?
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
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this hand is almost identical in many ways to a hand i posted in HSNL (not to hijack but some of the posts there definitely apply here even though this is HU and that one isn't).
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...-1-t89688.html
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Family Cruise IMO
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
lots of leaks ITT
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Elaborate? |
OK, first of all the idea of check-jamming the turn. It makes no sense because if he folds then you had the best hand, and if he calls you are drawing practically dead. If you insist on spewing your stack off you are easily better off check-calling the turn, turning your monitor off and check-calling any river.
Second the idea that you almost never have an A in your hand. If you think his range for raising this flop in position is mainly hands that smashed the flop then you should probably fold both QQ and AK to a raise. If you think he likes to make moves on coordinated low flops in 3-bet pots then you should bet-call them both IMO. Bet-calling TT+ and bet-folding all Ax hands is just a terrible strategy given how easy it will be for him to give up on some cards and barrel others if he's bluffing, and also given the fact that AK probably has better equity than TT vs his range anyway if his range has lots of bluffs. He will likely continue his bluff on all 10 cards that improve you as well, and sometimes shut down if a blank rolls off and allow you to check down the best hand. Can someone give a reason why bet-calling the flop with AK is bad?
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gabe
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3b flop? i think id make it 390
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griffey24
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I agree with mcat. As per my first post, I figured villain WOULD put us on a lot of AJ,AQ,AK type stuff to call this flop OOP.
Given above, if I were villain here I feel like I would show up here a fair amount with AK myself (flatting pre given stacks) and raising flop and expecting to get peeled light by worse Ax given how FoS it looks and also having decent equity vs all of hero's pairs.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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OP
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
3b flop? i think id make it 390
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ty Gabe
I didnt want to be the first one to say it....I agree with this
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Idk about 3betting the flop. It's turning our hand into a bluff. If he has the balls to bluff the flop here I think were going to see him continue all the way with it. You'd don't need to worry about 66's too much because i doubt he raises the flop with 66/65 and he doesnt have that many other 6's.
Turn seems totally bizarre and id be suspicious he's bluffing if he bet without hitting the time bank or taking a moderate amount of time.
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elipsesjeff
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Since this is a reraised pot and our opponent folds a lot to 3bets I'd think the likelihood of him hitting this board hard is small, although more likely than us I guess. Although I don't know how accurate these stats are since they seem to be taken in a 6max context and applied to HU which I have no idea how to interpret.
I think I agree with gabe in a flop 3bet as he's only representing 22,44,55 and could very easily try and set up a bluff shove by you if he has a hand like 88-JJ in this spot.
I also think if we call we have a more defined range that makes us easier to play against than 3-betting but I don't know if that applies or is accurate.
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ATOTHEC101
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
lots of leaks ITT
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Elaborate? |
OK, first of all the idea of check-jamming the turn. It makes no sense because if he folds then you had the best hand, and if he calls you are drawing practically dead. If you insist on spewing your stack off you are easily better off check-calling the turn, turning your monitor off and check-calling any river.
Second the idea that you almost never have an A in your hand. If you think his range for raising this flop in position is mainly hands that smashed the flop then you should probably fold both QQ and AK to a raise. If you think he likes to make moves on coordinated low flops in 3-bet pots then you should bet-call them both IMO. Bet-calling TT+ and bet-folding all Ax hands is just a terrible strategy given how easy it will be for him to give up on some cards and barrel others if he's bluffing, and also given the fact that AK probably has better equity than TT vs his range anyway if his range has lots of bluffs. He will likely continue his bluff on all 10 cards that improve you as well, and sometimes shut down if a blank rolls off and allow you to check down the best hand. Can someone give a reason why bet-calling the flop with AK is bad? |
In regards to your first point I definitely agree, I'm not a fan of shoving the turn as a bluff at all, just seems like burning money to me, mainly because we have the best hand alot of the time, and secondly that I wouldn't play ax or 6x like that.
I guess I didn't really think about the implications of not having enough ax in my bet/calling range on this flop If I feel he's making moves, I just looked at my absolute hand strength rather than his range being kinda polarised when he raises this flop, I don't really think he raises 88-jj though I'm not 100 % sure due to his small sizing. I also agree that he'll be firing all the cards that improve us when we have ak/aq thus definitely making it a credible bet/calling hand on this texture.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
3b flop? i think id make it 390
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I guess this would be good to balance for the times we play back with air but I as I said I'm really unsure whether he raises 88-jj and if he does whether he would spazz with them to a 3 bet, just feels like alot of assumptions are needed for this to be the correct play. By raising in my mind it gives us an easier decision on later streets but we largely get rid of his bluffs and end up getting it in vs sets/kk/aa and a3s etc.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Idk about 3betting the flop. It's turning our hand into a bluff. If he has the balls to bluff the flop here I think were going to see him continue all the way with it. You'd don't need to worry about 66's too much because i doubt he raises the flop with 66/65 and he doesnt have that many other 6's.
Turn seems totally bizarre and id be suspicious he's bluffing if he bet without hitting the time bank or taking a moderate amount of time.
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He def has the balls to fire 3, and his turn timing was fairly quick, no time bank was used if my memory serves me correctly.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Since this is a reraised pot and our opponent folds a lot to 3bets I'd think the likelihood of him hitting this board hard is small, although more likely than us I guess. Although I don't know how accurate these stats are since they seem to be taken in a 6max context and applied to HU which I have no idea how to interpret.
I think I agree with gabe in a flop 3bet as he's only representing 22,44,55 and could very easily try and set up a bluff shove by you if he has a hand like 88-JJ in this spot.
I also think if we call we have a more defined range that makes us easier to play against than 3-betting but I don't know if that applies or is accurate.
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Yeah these stats are nearly all derived from playing 6 max with him, though I have played him short handed for a few hundred hands of those. Folding to 63 % of 3 bets isn't alot is it, I thought a high fold to 3 bet stat was 70 % plus?
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Since this is a reraised pot and our opponent folds a lot to 3bets I'd think the likelihood of him hitting this board hard is small, although more likely than us I guess. Although I don't know how accurate these stats are since they seem to be taken in a 6max context and applied to HU which I have no idea how to interpret.
I think I agree with gabe in a flop 3bet as he's only representing 22,44,55 and could very easily try and set up a bluff shove by you if he has a hand like 88-JJ in this spot.
I also think if we call we have a more defined range that makes us easier to play against than 3-betting but I don't know if that applies or is accurate.
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Yeah these stats are nearly all derived from playing 6 max with him, though I have played him short handed for a few hundred hands of those. Folding to 63 % of 3 bets isn't alot is it, I thought a high fold to 3 bet stat was 70 % plus? |
folding 63% of 3bets is average or maybe on the low side of average for 6max, dont know about HU.
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Marshall28
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Why doesn't anybody advocate checking the flop is we are that concerned that he's going to raise and barrel off?
Seems to me if it's our read that he's going to bluff raise flop bet turn shove river, if we are betting we should be planning to call down. Otherwise we probably need to be pot controlling, I would guess.
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oskar
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10-31-2009, 01:10 AM
Post subject: Re: 3-6, tough spot hu deep.
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#25 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
This is the start of a 3/6 hu deep ante table on tilt. Villain is a soldish reg playing 25/21/3.6 with a 63 % fold to 3 bet over a decent sample.
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6m stats obviously...
Can't talk about 3/6, but in my experience 6m stats do not necessarily translate to how he plays HU very often. A 30/25 might play 40/30 HU and an 18/16 might turn into a 60/55. and both could play vastly different depending on opponent.
So I don't think this is all that relevant... It's not really relevant for the hand either way.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I like betting the flop way better than checking. A lot of reasons why, biggest two that come to mind is that our betting range has a lot of air and that when he calls the flop we are ahead like 100% of the time.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
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Yeah I think checking the flop sucks because we're getting floated by any pair or gutter.
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nutsinho
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how are we not just snapfolding turn and moving on to the next hand? do you think he would turn 88 into a bluff on flop? assuming not would you also debate calling the turn with KQ?
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
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Quote:
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how are we not just snapfolding turn and moving on to the next hand? do you think he would turn 88 into a bluff on flop? assuming not would you also debate calling the turn with KQ?
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Fairly sure he wouldn't turn 88 into a bluff, and I'd just bet/fold the flop with kq. I ended up folding the turn without too much deliberation but still felt a bit dirty.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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