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bjsaust
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06-11-2008, 12:33 AM
Post subject: 25NL line check
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Villain is 68/32 and has done this donk PSB into my PFR twice recently.
$0.15/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
4 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
CO cameleon3300 ($48.15)
BTN Hero ($22.70)
SB HappyYuppie ($24.35)
BB jeroen80 ($32.75)
Pre-flop: ($0.40, 4 players) Hero is BTN  
cameleon3300 calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, 2 folds, cameleon3300 calls $1
Flop:    ($2.90, 2 players)
cameleon3300 bets $2.90, Hero calls $2.90
Turn:  ($8.70, 2 players)
cameleon3300 bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25
River:  ($9.20, 2 players)
cameleon3300 bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25
Final Pot: $9.70
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Just playing to improve.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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If you think they are FOS the then flop call is ok, but you deff have to call the turn and river bets after if you call the flop. I dont see the point in raising either for value.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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That was my thinking, although I wondered about river.
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Just playing to improve.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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It's played fine. If I had air I'd probably raise the flop but that doesn't accomplish anything here.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Standard
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Thanks guys, sometimes I just want to check that what I think is standard, really is  .
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Just playing to improve.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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raise river.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
raise river pretty much never ever ever ever.
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FYP
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
raise river.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
raise river.
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why? we have a good bluff catcher.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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given stats, im gonna assume villain is a bit of a station and therefore id make a small raise on the river ($2.25). his line is weak so i'd say the top of his range is A-x, and id imagine you can easily find ppl at 25NL who would call a river raise with 7-x and probably worse.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill
given stats, im gonna assume villain is a bit of a station and therefore id make a small raise on the river ($2.25). his line is weak so i'd say the top of his range is A-x, and id imagine you can easily find ppl at 25NL who would call a river raise with 7-x and probably worse.
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I think the thin value here is lost when he re-raises you with god-knows-what.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill
given stats, im gonna assume villain is a bit of a station and therefore id make a small raise on the river ($2.25). his line is weak so i'd say the top of his range is A-x, and id imagine you can easily find ppl at 25NL who would call a river raise with 7-x and probably worse.
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I think the thin value here is lost when he re-raises you with god-knows-what. |
Yeah, it's so sick when they min 3-bet you with A3o. I never raise this river outside of a solid read.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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If he re-raises we're done.
I'd just call it, play show + tell and adjust.
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badgers
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06-11-2008, 10:35 AM
Post subject: Re: 25NL line check
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#15 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Guys read the OP...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Villain is 68/32 and has done this donk PSB into my PFR twice recently.
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This gives him a wide range. I'm pretty sure this villain will be calling really wide so this is a raise for me.
However, Fnord makes a good point about us not wanting to get threebet. I think there is such clear value in raising though that this is not a huge issue.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Galapogos
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06-11-2008, 04:17 PM
Post subject: Re: 25NL line check
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#16 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Guys read the OP...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Villain is 68/32 and has done this donk PSB into my PFR twice recently.
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This gives him a wide range. I'm pretty sure this villain will be calling really wide so this is a raise for me. |
Basing your thin post-flop decisions on the fact the guy likes to see a lot of flops is bad imo.
Edit: Also, the river is a whole different street. He's donked into your PFR a lot on the flop, sure. But you have no clue what he has here and have no clue what he calls with here. Why not just find out cheaply and apply that info in the future? What do you actually put this guy on? What do you put him on that will call and why? You can't make a thin raise like this on the logic of "well I could raise and hope he plays and calls with bottom pair here."
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Someone who is loose preflop is more likely to be loose postflop. This is not always the case but as a general rule that we can apply to unknowns I think it's fine.
Preflop his range is weighted away from As because he is so aggresive I would expect him to be raising almost any ace. I'm not saying we should take aces away from his range but they need to be discounted here.
I would expect villain on the river to have single pair hands/air a lot, as well as thing like lolplayed sets/two pair.... basically he has a very wide range but the way it's played I would expect this mostly to be a weak pair/air. While we wont get any more value from his complete air hands, I don't see calling this river with our "bluff catcher". Had villain bet something like $6 I would call, but this bet is so weak we are losing value from his weak pairs by not raising. Villain may well talk himself into a call with even a pair of twos because he bet so small that he may see us as trying to bully him off the hand.
Edit: Here's a thought... If he checks to you here would you vbet?
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I probably dont. As Fnord said, I'm mainly interested in playing show and tell here, I want to see what he's making these plays with.
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Just playing to improve.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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not going to lie I wanted to raise river smallish before reading badger's post. I trust the others that we are wrong here but it's still tempting.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Would someone explain to me why I am so wrong? I was v quickly flamed for my line and now that I've explained my thought process you can't spot my mistakes or share your own views in a coherent manner...
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Someone who is loose preflop is more likely to be loose postflop. This is not always the case but as a general rule that we can apply to unknowns I think it's fine.
Preflop his range is weighted away from As because he is so aggresive I would expect him to be raising almost any ace. I'm not saying we should take aces away from his range but they need to be discounted here.
I would expect villain on the river to have single pair hands/air a lot, as well as thing like lolplayed sets/two pair.... basically he has a very wide range but the way it's played I would expect this mostly to be a weak pair/air. While we wont get any more value from his complete air hands, I don't see calling this river with our "bluff catcher". Had villain bet something like $6 I would call, but this bet is so weak we are losing value from his weak pairs by not raising. Villain may well talk himself into a call with even a pair of twos because he bet so small that he may see us as trying to bully him off the hand.
Edit: Here's a thought... If he checks to you here would you vbet?
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this makes sense, but like others have said the value in raising the river is pretty thin, and i wouldnt expect villain to call a raise with 9x/7x/smaller pp type hands that he almost always shows up with here. Getting to showdown here is what we want so we can see what villain is donking into us with because he will surely continue doing it. Raising gets called by all Ax hand he shows up with that hes just scared betting with and while we get the same info from him either way when he calls, we dont get to see if hes doing this with air if we raise and he instafolds the bottom 2/3 of his range.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Would someone explain to me why I am so wrong? I was v quickly flamed for my line and now that I've explained my thought process you can't spot my mistakes or share your own views in a coherent manner...
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I explained to you exactly why I don't like it. And don't get so sensitive. People arguing the other side isn't "flaming".
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Would someone explain to me why I am so wrong? I was v quickly flamed for my line and now that I've explained my thought process you can't spot my mistakes or share your own views in a coherent manner...
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I explained to you exactly why I don't like it. And don't get so sensitive. People arguing the other side isn't "flaming". |
It's not really an issue but I wasn't really happy the reaction after my first post. Whatever, edrama is lame and I don't really care.
I guess I just believe that opp shows up with an A less often others seem to think, but I' m sure it's close to being a raise at the very least.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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griffey24
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06-12-2008, 06:50 PM
Post subject: Re: 25NL line check
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#24 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Villain is 68/32 and has done this donk PSB into my PFR twice recently.
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What did he do it with? That would definitely help picking the best line.
As for calling or raising these donkass bets. I've had players donk lead into me like this a few times lately, and both times I was like "wtf.. why are you leading into me on a dry A high board??" and called them... and checked it down and got shown Arag.
There's not much logic behind their leading... though I guess it stopped me from barreling my lower pair against them.
I think villains range here is mostly all weak, but weak also includes a lot of weak aces, a lot of 9's. If I was gonna raise, i'd raise it smallish (1/2 pot) to get called by a 9 but I'd expect to get shown a crappy ace a lot.
I think raising is pretty marginal.. you'll win sometimes.. you'll lose sometimes. I prob just take the cheap SD.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I folded the first two hands and he didnt show down, thats why I picked this spot to look him up. I think I had AQ on a K high dry board one of the times, other was something similar.
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Just playing to improve.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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man how does this thread have so many posts! totally totally standard.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Lol, I wondered the same thing, but I guess it proves that what I think is standard others might not, which is why I think its sometimes useful to get a checkkup on a hand you think is fine.
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Just playing to improve.
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