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250bb deep QQ 3bet by the btn

  
 
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Marshall28
Old 02-23-2009, 09:31 PM     Post subject: 250bb deep QQ 3bet by the btn #1 (permalink)  
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Seat 1: twinpsych ( $307.10 USD )
Seat 2: Marshall28 ( $351.75 USD )
Seat 3: McRoNiX ( $243.10 USD )
Seat 4: ZenTrickster ( $144.95 USD )
Seat 5: xSuPrA ( $100.00 USD )
Seat 6: jakeblue99 ( $100.00 USD )
ZenTrickster posts small blind [$0.50 USD].
xSuPrA posts big blind [$1.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Marshall28 [ Qc Qd ]
jakeblue99 folds
twinpsych folds
Marshall28 raises [$3.00 USD]
McRoNiX raises [$10.00 USD]
ZenTrickster folds
xSuPrA folds
Marshall28 raises [$22.00 USD]
McRoNiX calls [$15.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, 6h, 3h ]
Marshall28 bets [$38.00 USD]
McRoNiX calls [$38.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8s ]

BTN had been 3betting me a bunch in and out of position, he had 3b % of 10% and I had folded to all of his prior 3bets on me, maybe 4 or 5.

I've heard of arguments for flatting preflop, but I think I'd feel kinda dumb if I did that... I have no reason to think he's floating me light on this flop. If I wanna call his 3b, what's my plan on the flop? What should I have done if the turn was a low heart? A big non heart? What's my best line at this point on the 8s ???
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thizzSantaCruz
Old 02-23-2009, 09:47 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I like the 4 bet preflop. I would like to check the turn and try to pot control this pot somehow.
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Marshall28
Old 02-23-2009, 10:00 PM #3 (permalink)  
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What do I think he has to flat the flop? If he has TT or JJ w/ a heart, should I really be risking letting him check behind, or bluff me? If I'm checking I don't see how I can call a bet since it's kinda RIO spot if a heart falls on the river... I'd have to be checking to raise or fold, there's 175bb left ...
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Marshall28
Old 02-23-2009, 10:25 PM #4 (permalink)  
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It's like, if I bet too little on the turn I end up looking too weak and have to call a shove because he will have more semi-bluffs in his range, but if I bet too much, I end up pot committing myself and have to call anyways....

I really just don't know what to do besides avoid playing deepstack out of position? Just leave the table? What do you guys recommend?
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thizzSantaCruz
Old 02-23-2009, 10:41 PM #5 (permalink)  
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LOL my last response is typed out terribly. Playing deep out of position just flat out sucks. If a guy is going to give you a lot of trouble I would leave the table. I understand your fear of getting bluffed or semi-bluffed out of this pot but you have to ask yourself is this the type of player that will be willing to make big moves like this deep? Most people at 100NL won't do this.
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griffey24
Old 02-23-2009, 11:20 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 I don't really like 4betting QQ here at all, OOP, with these stacks.

Maybe with some read that villain is a donk and will flat tons of 4bets, but otherwise we're just letting him off the hook with what might be a very wide 3betting range deep.

As played, I'd probably bet here and then likely check all rivers. c/f hearts and c/soul read non-hearts.
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Marshall28
Old 02-23-2009, 11:39 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Griffey, what do you like to do if you just flat his 3b? What's the plan on dry and draw heavy flops w/ an overpair ?
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 02-23-2009, 11:53 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 Unless he has 88 AhA or KhK your ahead, so id bet again.

The preflop fourbet is too small, he essentially he'll call with 100% of hands and it will be +EV.

As for the river, I don't think you can shove profitably so I'd just bet a large amount on the turn and c/f river. Although Im sure some will say bet turn shove river.
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griffey24
Old 02-24-2009, 12:26 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall28
Griffey, what do you like to do if you just flat his 3b? What's the plan on dry and draw heavy flops w/ an overpair ?
I probably c/c most boards and let him bluff. He'll probably be more likely to barrel on us given he thinks our range is pretty weak after we flat pre.
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Alexos
Old 02-24-2009, 02:29 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 like ISF said, 4bet bigger preflop given stacks and OOP
id fire again on turn and probably shove river given stack sizes
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 02-24-2009, 06:38 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 gah i might c/f turn although only out of the fact that it has no value... But its a good bluff really so since he could have hands with equity should you bet anyway?

Also, everyone thinks you're crazy aggro, does this guy?
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Toadstool
Old 02-24-2009, 01:29 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 I think you can get a lot more information by checking here, and seeing what he does. The timing/sizing will give a lot away, allowing you to make a better decision.

Don't worry about being bluffed....it's not the end of the world, even a super strong range has bluffs in it.

If he does check behind, then thats fine he has just let you know you are ahead a huge% of the time, and can play the river with that extra information.

It's just not a situation where you want all the money to go in if you bet. If you bet and he raises you are way behind his range, whereas if you check, he bets, you raise and he calls, you'll be doing better against his range.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 02-24-2009, 05:56 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 I think checking the turn is really bad. His range is much weaker than ours and allowing him to see more streets with a weaker range is burning money. On the same note, if we check and he bets we're pretty much fucked because he can have weaker value sometimes, but then he can also have AhA, KhK, or 88. Unless you want to check fold, which while it may be a fine play versus players who are never betting JJ-99 on the turn, it certainly sucks against the ones who are.
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bigspenda73
Old 02-24-2009, 06:18 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 flop timing?
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Marshall28
Old 02-25-2009, 03:35 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Massimo, I'm not necessarily so aggressive anymore, I've toned it down a bit so I'm not sure he thinks anything like that against me. If anything, he's more aggressive than I am.

ISF, Alexos: I agree that I should have 4b much bigger than I did, when I was talking to Nutedawg about it, that's the same mistake he brought up. If I 4b bigger, I avoid a lot of problems postflop.

Spenda: His timing wasn't particularly fast or particularly slow. Maybe he called the flop after 5-8 seconds. Nothing that would give off any information.

I also agree that checking the turn is pretty terrible unless I'm going for a c/f, which frankly I think is pretty weak and exploitable.

We came to the decision that I should b/f the turn, betting ~80 and then c/f heart rivers.

Your guys thoughts on this? Agree/disagree?
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 02-25-2009, 04:02 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 Sounds fine.
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Kamawoop
Old 02-25-2009, 04:39 PM #17 (permalink)  
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I think you now have to bet the most that you think he'll call; whilst not giving him odds.

It looks very, very likely to me that he has Ah. I think either allin, or a big enough bet as to be a virtual allin.

If he flopped a flush, or you're behind another way, well hey. I wouldn't worry about it.

Do you really want to check-fold? If you check and he bets, I certainly don't think that means you're behind.

Check-call, or check-raise may have some merits, but I don't like either play. You have to make him pay to draw here, even if that may then get you pot committed.

---

This hand started as 250bb deep, but...

Now villains remaining stack is about the size of the pot. It's do, or die! I don't see how softly, softly could work here, even if you want to play it way.
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noble007
Old 02-26-2009, 07:06 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
I probably c/c most boards and let him bluff. He'll probably be more likely to barrel on us given he thinks our range is pretty weak after we flat pre.
Yeah flatting pre and taking this line is optimal me thinks.
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Fnord
Old 02-26-2009, 07:08 AM #19 (permalink)  
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I like using QQ/JJ/TT as bluff catchers in spots like this given the way most TAggfish play.

That said, if he's 3-betting you light so often, I like the more aggressive line. Better yet, just find another table. You just don't have to put up with this shit.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 02-26-2009, 06:00 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 Oh come on he's not going to bluff if we check since he never calls the flop without a hand.
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w272727
Old 02-28-2009, 11:15 AM #21 (permalink)  

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when you raised him preflop and then reraised after being raised..u were basically saying you had high pockets or something like AK...the flop did not hit AK at all..and you bet so he probably is thinking you got AK with one heart or he is thinking you have high pockets now prob not 10 10 or JJ as you reraised him when he raised you...so you are basically telling him you got qq kk or aa...and one heart somewhere...HE knows that..that is what you are representing...Now for him to just call here...means he doesnt have you beat yet...unless he is slowplaying a flush which i doubt as i cant see him raising with AK of hearts and not reraising youre reraise...also not AQ has you have both QQ, definietly not AJ...he wouldnt have raised you with KQ either he would have just called...so he prob has...A of hearts and is waiting to hit...i doubt he has a set as he would want to get it all in on the flop...i would go all in on the turn and push him out of the pot. If the turn was a heart i would have to fold reluctantly or i would bet something small like 5$ twice and hope he just calls. if reraised just fold...tho if the A of hearts came on turn i would consider going all in...as he wouldnt have called the flop bet with just King of hearts unless he had KK wich also i doubt as he would have reraised you preflop and reraised on flop...maybe he has QQ. aswell so thats why an all in on Aheart turn could be a good play he could put u on king of hearts..

goodluck.
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