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meeloche
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06-07-2008, 05:59 AM
Post subject: 250bb deep 3 bet pot
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Villain is 2+2er running 26/23/4 ish over 75 hands. I have been fairly active however my image should be clean in 3 bet pots. I have just shown down KK in similar spot to this. I have been winning a decent amount without showdown at this table.
Other villain is big donkey who doesn't fold pre hence my large squeeze size.
Turn line?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Hero ($801.55)
UTG ($461.70)
MP ($184)
Button ($197)
SB ($337.25)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , A .
UTG raises to $6, 2 folds, SB calls $5, Hero raises to $28, UTG calls $22, SB folds.
Flop: ($62) 2, 7 , 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $50, UTG raises to $150, Hero calls $100.
Turn: ($362)  (2 players)
Hero?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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donk 100 into him
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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pre-flop raise size is fine.
OOP against a donkey who's giving me action with a lot worse I'm re-raising the flop all-in every time.
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deleo
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insta allin
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
OOP against a donkey who's giving me action with a lot worse I'm re-raising the flop all-in every time.
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He's up against the 26/23/4 guy though.
I have no clue meeloche. I'm interested in everyone else's replies. I don't see this situation a lot as I would have left this table a long time ago. I don't want this guy on my left when we're both deep.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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SB is the big donkey, I can't leave when a huge fish is deep. 
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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who is the villain?
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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spivey, the hand is posted in ssnl from his perspective but i was going to wait for a little more discussion before I linked it.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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Ok, knowing who this is and thinking about it some, I think I actually like folding to the flop raise. I lurk 2p2 enough to know Spivey is a good aggro regular. I don't think he should be expecting you to be doing this lightly given your deepness and relative positions and the big donkey. He must have a PP almost everytime here, or AK I guess, not sure if he's aggro enough to 4-bet with it this deep and be willing to get it in. Probably not without history.
If he thinks you're full of shit I don't think he's turning any overpairs into bluffs here. Maybe he turns a small PP into a bluff. But that seems way too spewy considering you guys have no personal history you mentioned, your 3-bet pot image is good, and it's a fairly bad board for you to be c-bet bluffing on. It's possible if he called with AK he might be bluffing since that hand has a lot more equity than a PP. So calling he flop can't be too bad if you must, I have no clue how spewy he can truly be, but I definitely give him credit if he shows further action.
But all in all, I think folding flop is best. But I may see too many monsters. Flame away.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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no folding
i also like a bigger 3bet size deep
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
no folding
i also like a bigger 3bet size deep
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yeah but you dont want to lose the fishy. we dont expect to take spivey's stack all that often.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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all in flop
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by will641
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
no folding
i also like a bigger 3bet size deep
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yeah but you dont want to lose the fishy. we dont expect to take spivey's stack all that often. |
idk maybe just different philosophy but my experience has been that if a fish is going to call a 3bet at all, making it big won't change him calling. I think the only way it makes a diff is a small like 2.5x 3bet he may call more... fishies love set hunting for bad odds too
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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check flop or go all in when u bet and get raised
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
donk 100 into him
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uh no
are you just trying to get all in vs better hands?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
donk 100 into him
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uh no
are you just trying to get all in vs better hands? |
this is assuming action is as played by OP going into turn
I'm not donking only to fold...
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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if hes good he knows that u cant handle a ton of heat here based on your range ... which is very well defined... issue is u arent 250bb deep .. more like a little over 200 which makes it much harder for him to raise this flop to 150 and not be committed to the hand. in which case id narrow his range to big draws on the flop, sets, and a slowplayed qq-kk. probably not qq cuz i cant see him expecting u to play JJ this way for value.
i think when u flat the flop u r saying "i think bluffs and draws are a big enough portion of your range to warrant a call" ... so if the draws miss u probably shouldnt fold tihs hand at any point... at the same time i think raising or leading into him again is going to be a bad idea since u r losing value from those hands that would be forced to fold since their equity goes way down on the turn. plus the likelihood of him believing he can push u off your hand goes down as well obv.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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marshall what draws can he have on the flop?
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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89
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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jam flop, if u dont jam flop, c/cc/c/c//c/c/c/c
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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Sigh... I'm such a nit.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
89
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ok so he's not going to call w/ 89o so that leaves 4 combos of 89s that probably fold a lot pre anyway.
I think it's pretty clear what villains repping do we really think he's bluffing all that much here?
disclaimer: full ring nit.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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one question about shoving flop: isn't our hand kinda a bluff catcher vs a good player's flop raise value range here? which would mean theres zero value in a shove aside from protection.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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i agree, there is more value to be had in not shoving flop but playing it a bit slower.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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If we shove flop here it has exciting implications for the way we play AK oop vs tough opponents
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
If we shove flop here it has exciting implications for the way we play AK oop vs tough opponents
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yeah but its 100nl
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
If we shove flop here it has exciting implications for the way we play AK oop vs tough opponents
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yeah but its 100nl |
...and this spot just won't come up often enough against the same opponents.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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hmm i guess my player pool is too small
this kind of shit makes a huge diff even at 200nl when you are playing the same regs all the time
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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I think mostly the 200NL regs notice HuD stats which this has little impact on.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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oh ya just for fun how are we playing 222 here?
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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last thing
open shoving turn is pretty sweet (thx benny)
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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AnTman_69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
If we shove flop here it has exciting implications for the way we play AK oop vs tough opponents
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yeah but its 100nl |
Quote:
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issue is u arent 250bb deep .. more like a little over 200
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this is 200 NL. unless im seeing things. And if it was 100nl..wouldnt he be 800bb deep.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
last thing
open shoving turn is pretty sweet (thx benny)
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please explain. As far as I can see we have a bluff catcher as surely it's unlikely he's raising KK for value...?
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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open-shoving turn looks like a confused 88, TT or 89 imo
edit : we'd have to kind of suck to get to the turn this way (assuming no crazy history w villain) with one of those hands but I think it's good thinking
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Problem with that is you aren't getting a call with AK/bluff which I think could spaz shove a turn expecting you to fold any pair up to JJ maybe QQ.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
one question about shoving flop: isn't our hand kinda a bluff catcher vs a good player's flop raise value range here? which would mean theres zero value in a shove aside from protection.
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This kinda my thought. Sauce and nutsinho, what kind of range do you think villain calls a flop shove with? I think his flop calling range is going to be limited to sets and KK, QQ, what else do you put in there that makes a flop shove better than a call and c/c turn.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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shoving flop is more of a play to balance your range. u r just assuming that on this board your hand is probably best and it allows u to do it in the future w/ like 89/45 or other draws next time. its the added bonus of the times he folds and doesnt get to see your hand as well as for value the times he calls down w/ KK/QQ ... i hosently dont think most players would call w/ QQ, though this is really dependent on what opponent thinks of u.
i really think b/c c/c c/c is the best line since there are so few draws and u will get value from more hands u r behind rather than blowing them off.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
i really think b/c c/c c/c is the best line since there are so few draws and u will get value from more hands u r behind rather than blowing them off.
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i concur
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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i think KK is the only hand that will value-bet turn or riv after we bet-call flop unless villain is terrible or thinks we are terrible
and since he cold-called pre...
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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so what you think turn is a c/f?
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AnTman_69
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
If we shove flop here it has exciting implications for the way we play AK oop vs tough opponents
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yeah but its 100nl |
Quote:
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issue is u arent 250bb deep .. more like a little over 200
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this is 200 NL. unless im seeing things. And if it was 100nl..wouldnt he be 800bb deep. |
oops, looks like u caught me. good work.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
so what you think turn is a c/f?
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b/c c/f would be most exploitable line
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Results:
Here's the hand from villains perspective:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=221111
I changed the turn card to a blank cause I just wanted to confirm the best way to play it without ginning the turn.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Did you push river as a level?
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Just playing to improve.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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I pushed the river because:
His range on the flop is sets, air (both more likely because of how deep we are) big over pairs (not as likely as sets and air) Because he checked the turn I feel like his air won't continue on any river so that leaves all the sets which I want to stack and frankly expect to because of how much is in the pot and how much villain has left. He also could maybe hero call with KK.
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