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johnny_fish
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05-19-2006, 05:57 AM
Post subject: 220BB middle set
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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No read on Villain, new to table. What should I do here?
Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2.50/$5.00
6 players
Converter
Stack sizes:
Hero: $1116.75
UTG+1: $753.50
CO: $704.70
Button: $241.50
SB: $1127.50
BB: $709.25
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with 4 4
Hero raises to $20, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls.
Flop: 8 3 4 ($60, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $40, SB raises to $120, BB folds, Hero ?
I now know he's 19/12/2.2.. Does that make a big difference?
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I always just call this.
Edit: Didn't see stack sizes, and am too tired to think right now. Maybe tomorrow.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Raise to $400 or so? He could be testing your cbet. I guess it depends on whether you want to let him see the turn for relatively cheap. I think there are many cards that can kill your action on the turn. If you reraise, he doesn't know if you have a set or an overpair so he may call if he has a high overpair. You aren't overly concerned about 88 are you?
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
Raise to $400 or so? He could be testing your cbet. I guess it depends on whether you want to let him see the turn for relatively cheap. I think there are many cards that can kill your action on the turn. If you reraise, he doesn't know if you have a set or an overpair so he may call if he has a high overpair. You aren't overly concerned about 88 are you?
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Raising to 300-400 was probably best (not results oriented). Just calling and using position doesn't build the pot fast enough.
Anyway, I tried to represent KK/AA and 3-bet all-in. Villain claimed to have folded 33.. Note taken 
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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I doubt he folded 33. My guess is that he had 99/TT.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
I doubt he folded 33.
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I don't see any reason not to believe him. He has a double stack so he's likely to be a good player, and johnny_fish is probably never going all-in here without a set. It's a strong fold.
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Iwind
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 436
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I can't see how a huge overbet all in would represent AA/KK, pushing $1000 into a $200 pot would be really wierd with an overpair, do you really play overpairs like this? I think it's a real bad way to play overpairs. Also there are no likely draws he could put on here, so I'd also belive him if he said he folded 33. Both calling in position and reraising to 300 is a good option I think, depending on how aggressive he is and what you put him on, if he bets big again on turn it's no problem getting the pot big enough.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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I doubt he folded 33. My guess is that he had 99/TT.
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
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I doubt he would fold bottom set since your line looks like a horribly misplayed overpair. I would just call his flop raise and go from there. We have position on him so it shouldn't be very hard to get all the money in. I would raise him on the turn and get the rest in on the river.
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
I doubt he would fold bottom set since your line looks like a horribly misplayed overpair.
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That was my intention  Stupid FPS..
I just didn't realize Villain could fold 33. I guess his read on me was better than I thought..
Although he probably didn't have 33. He wouldn't c/r the flop then right? I also found a few hands in PT where he raised the flop with an overpair to test the PFR. So it was 99-JJ probably.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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He might C/R the flop with bottom set, but maybe not that hard. He has to feel that's a very non-threatening flop for his hand (if you're behind, you're probably WAY behind) so why make a good-sized raise so quickly? I've seen this as much or more with an overpair as with a set, and the raggedy board really lends itself to my interpretation. The fact that he said he folded 33 doesn't mean much... he could be bragging about a great laydown, or setting up a table image as a tight player who can be bullied. People brag about great laydowns they didn't actually make all the time.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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I know stacks are deep, but do people really worry about being overset enough to fold when they hit and somebody pushes? What board will they call a push with? Why play 33 if you are going to hit and then fold? There is very little chance he folded 33 here. Dale is right about that and about people lying about their hands. When I get caught in bluffs I claim I layed down big hands too. Sometimes I convince myself too and feel a real sense of pride.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Yeah, he didn't believe that flop hit your high cards, so he put you to the test.
You passed.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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I'm not sure I believe villian folded 33, but it certainly is a possibility. I mean, you're shoving for 3x pot or so. How often do you do that w/o the nuts or a huge draw at least? Doing that with an overpair is just dumb, and I wouldn't believe you had AA/KK if I were villian.
For this hand, I would lean towards calling villian's cr. Unless he has 56 or 52, this is clearly wa/wb, and there are just about no scare cards that can come for you on the turn. Hopefully he will bomb the turn if you just smooth-call the flop, then you can shove or just call again and get it in on the river, all depending on what the turn card is and how he reacts to it.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
Although he probably didn't have 33. He wouldn't c/r the flop then right?
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Why not? Against solid thinking players I love to make a big cr on a very dry board with a set, b/c they never put you on a set.
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
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Did you tell him you had a set of fours and THEN he said he folded bottom set? I would be more likely to believe him if he came right out and said he folded a set of threes without you mentioning a word to him since there was no way he could know if his laydown was correct.
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
Did you tell him you had a set of fours and THEN he said he folded bottom set? I would be more likely to believe him if he came right out and said he folded a set of threes without you mentioning a word to him since there was no way he could know if his laydown was correct.
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He took his time, typed '33' and folded..
I replied something like '? set? pfew'.
Anyway, uninteresting hand. I should've played it slower.
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Muxy
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: Canadian LOLUH'S AND AMERICAN LOLUHS
Posts: 1,529
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
Raise to $400 or so? He could be testing your cbet. I guess it depends on whether you want to let him see the turn for relatively cheap. I think there are many cards that can kill your action on the turn. If you reraise, he doesn't know if you have a set or an overpair so he may call if he has a high overpair. You aren't overly concerned about 88 are you?
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Raising to 300-400 was probably best (not results oriented). Just calling and using position doesn't build the pot fast enough.
Anyway, I tried to represent KK/AA and 3-bet all-in. Villain claimed to have folded 33.. Note taken |
3bet all in here is a great line and villian is full of shit.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Even though stacks are deep, I would still probably just call. The only hand you maximize against by reraising is 3-3. Against every other hand, you win more by just calling, as you don't accurately define your hand, and allow him the opportunity to overplay his, or continue with a bluff. So while you may be costing yourself some money when he has 3-3, I think you make more on average given the fact that he almost always has another holding, and that calling is almost always preferred in those cases.
Edit: Another thought. When he has 3-3, you can still win his money fairly easily by just calling anyways. Call the flop, and he will bet probably $250-$300 on the turn. Call, and then he will probably make another substantial bet on the river (at least $400), at which point you move in, and he will call. This is probably your best line. Call the flop, if he bets big on the turn, just call, if he makes a smallish or medium-sized bet, raise to build the pot, and try to get all-in. If you call the turn, move in on any river.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
He has a double stack so he's likely to be a good player.
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lol
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
He has a double stack so he's likely to be a good player.
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lol |
It's true often enough to take this into serious consideration though.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
Raise to $400 or so? He could be testing your cbet. I guess it depends on whether you want to let him see the turn for relatively cheap. I think there are many cards that can kill your action on the turn. If you reraise, he doesn't know if you have a set or an overpair so he may call if he has a high overpair. You aren't overly concerned about 88 are you?
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Raising to 300-400 was probably best (not results oriented). Just calling and using position doesn't build the pot fast enough.
Anyway, I tried to represent KK/AA and 3-bet all-in. Villain claimed to have folded 33.. Note taken |
pushing over a c/r when ur 200bb++ deep on a dry board in a relatively small pot? I doubt it. Whether or not it would be a good fold to muck 33 here I'm not sure, but I really, really doubt he did.
It's pretty obvious that you had a set, and when you said 'phew', it confirmed it for him. He got the info he needed.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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btw I'd probably just call the c/r and use position. If I was OOP and raised I'd be much more inclined to 3-bet it.
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