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Marshall28
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03-15-2009, 12:53 AM
Post subject: 200nl Why am I such a fish.... ???
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Table 'Oppavia' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Marshall28 ($353.40 in chips)
Seat 2: xX_jesSy ($205.60 in chips)
Seat 3: DragonBlow ($100 in chips)
Seat 5: Romantic1987 ($288.40 in chips)
Seat 6: snellesnelle ($377.90 in chips)
snellesnelle: posts small blind $1
Marshall28: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Marshall28 [Qd Qs]
xX_jesSy: raises $5 to $7
DragonBlow: folds
Romantic1987: folds
snellesnelle: folds
Marshall28: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [3h 6c 7s]
Marshall28: checks
Jim14Qc joins the table at seat #4
xX_jesSy: bets $9.40
Marshall28: raises $20.60 to $30
xX_jesSy: calls $20.60
*** TURN *** [3h 6c 7s] [8s]
Marshall28: bets $52
xX_jesSy: calls $52
*** RIVER *** [3h 6c 7s 8s] [2c]
Marshall28: bets $264.40 and is all-in
This was the first hand this dude played at the table so I didn't wanna 3b, also because he's UTG and im BB.
I feel like this line really sucks since I think he's always folding TT/JJ by the turn, I feel like I can't c/c the turn then check the river cuz hes just gonna own me too easily. I can't c/r the turn. If I bet turn then bet river I think he never calls with worse because my perceived range improves dramatically on the turn. Anybody have any better ideas for how to play this hand?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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i think leading flop is considerably better than c/r
I would probably cehck the turn, as played yeah shove river
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Toadstool
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 442
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This is just a pretty poor spot in general. Have you ever seen/heard of this guy before? any info would make it a lot easier to play. If the guy is a reg, and you haven't played with him before he probably assumes that the line you took, if for value is usually a set, so in a way you are overrepping your hand.
You're realistically (assuming the guy isnt a massive calling station) only beating 99/1010/JJ by the river and they are only a small % of his range given that he folds them a % of the time on either the flop or turn.
Seeing as it's only 5 handed, I'd say reraise pre, but no biggie, postflop is more important that preflop play, most people how to play competently pre.
As far as postflop advice, I'd give the same as Renton without any more info.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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c/c flop
c/c turn (TAggs will barrel a K or A wayy too often)
Play a river.
I play JJ and TT the same way if I think it's correct to check the flop in the dark.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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I knew the guy was a reg, I had a few hands on him and he had like 22/18 type numbers.
Toadstool, basically the reasoning you gave is why I feel gross about this hand, so as far as saying like you think I should take Renton's line ... but like what's the reasoning for it? I kinda feel like he can't really fold any pair in his hand if I c/r the flop which is what makes it seem like a good flop line to take as I get the most money in there as I can. If I lead though, am I leading to 3b all in? I think that's probably not too good since there are very few draws he can put me on and I'm likely going to be getting it in behind. If that's the case, do I call his raise then lead a safe turn? What am I suppose to put him on if he raises? What should I expect him to think of what I have based on this ... Or do you like to call raise then check turn? I really am just lost as far as how to play these situations and how to read my opponents hand since these situations are just super unfamiliar to me.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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I like the c/r on the flop rather than a lead because villain is going to c-bet this board almost always.
I like Fnord's line for balancing reasons, but isn't QQ just too strong of a hand to play this passively?
Aren't we missing value a lot of the time?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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why would he cbet this board always?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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why did you c/r this flop with QQ? are you gay or something?
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
Aren't we missing value a lot of the time?
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Against players who routinely call + re-raise with worse hands and don't two barrel on auto-pilot I play queens faster.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Quote:
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why did you c/r this flop with QQ? are you gay or something?
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I wish I realized this earlier, I guess you solved the conundrum of my life by reading one hand history. It all makes sense now.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
why would he cbet this board always?
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Because it's a dry 7-high rainbow flop. I don't see regulars checking behind on this flop all that often.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
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why did you c/r this flop with QQ? are you gay or something?
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What's wrong with his play?
What if we have AA here?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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aa and qq are big time different with this same line
edit: run some pokerstove calcs
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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spenda, Why is that the case exactly?
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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What exactly are you putting him on preflop and the flop?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
spenda, Why is that the case exactly?
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well much like Toadstool said, the hands we're trying to get value from fold a lot on the flop or turn, therefore we're left with a range that AA has a good amount more equity against than QQ.
run QQ vs. AA against a range of 33,66,77,TT+
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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I see the equity difference is huge between QQ and AA if we are assuming he stacks KK/QQ. I guess the situation I am struggling with is I think he folds just about all 1 pair hands when I bet this turn, maybe except AA. I guess that's why c/r this flop kinda sucks cuz in that case there are a lot of turn cards I really have trouble playing. I guess I'll stop c/r as a default in this spot. I jammed the river because I didn't know what to put him on and I didn't know what to do lol I guess that solves the question in the tagline as to why I'm such a fish.
Starting to get it, thanks.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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this spot was discussed on another forum and the conclusion was that it was too thin to c/r QQ on like a 522r flop vs anyone good. on this board you are straight up bluffing.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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This is the exact kind of situation where i think its optimal to lead for value.
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