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AnTman_69
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07-30-2009, 03:19 AM
Post subject: 200nl TPGK against tighty OOP
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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Main villy is TAG running around 17/13/4 with 8% 3bet over 150hands~~. Zero history. Saw him double barrel a str8 draw with J9 on a TQA2 board. Thats not really relevant..but is the only hand i've seen him show down yet. Hows my line...and whats our best riv option given his nitty stats. C/f?
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG Bidicha ($223.25)
UTG+1 Hero ($200.00)
CO showtime ($40.00)
BTN LKlap11 ($314.35)
SB elpirata25 ($131.90)
BB kajone ($72.95)
Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1  
1 fold, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, LKlap11 calls $6, elpirata25 calls $5, kajone calls $4
Flop:    ($24, 4 players)
elpirata25 checks, kajone checks, Hero bets $16, LKlap11 calls $16, elpirata25 folds, kajone folds
Turn:  ($56, 2 players)
Hero bets $40, LKlap11 calls $40
River:  ($136, 2 players)
hero..
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OP
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Iso'ing Iso's
Posts: 117
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With the toppest of the pairs, I like c/c or b/f but i think I like c/c better because worse kings can value bet when checked to given AF and as a standard TAG I think he's raising FD's, sets and p+draws on the flop.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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definitely check fold now
the interesting question is whether you should have checked the flop or turn.
his range to call the flop 4 way out of relative position has gotta be pretty tight, i would think KJs KQ AK, maybe QQ/JJ, sets and some fd's, which makes betting the turn pretty thin imo. You could probably c/f.
I would often check flop barring the other two players being donks.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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definitely bet the flop, id bet the turn, river is a clear c/f
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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OP
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Iso'ing Iso's
Posts: 117
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As a standard TAG, I'm pretty sure he's raising flop with sets on this type of board, if not then almost definately without fail on the turn given how sticky the river can get.
Plus people raise FD's religously, especially nuttish flush draws.
3bet % makes me not want to give him AK like ever
Isn't c/c the uber standard line on WA/WB situations like this?
Or is my thought process on this wrong?
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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this isn't really a WA/WB it's more like slightly ahead/way behind
EDIT: nvm owned by nuts obv
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by OP
As a standard TAG, I'm pretty sure he's raising flop with sets on this type of board, if not then almost definately without fail on the turn given how sticky the river can get.
Plus people raise FD's religously, especially nuttish flush draws.
3bet % makes me not want to give him AK like ever
Isn't c/c the uber standard line on WA/WB situations like this?
Or is my thought process on this wrong?
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in order to checkcall you would need to think he is betting some hands that are worse than ours on the river...there arent any obviousy combos of those. based on your hand reading the correct play would clearly be to shove for both value vs KJs/KTs and fold equity vs chops.
ur also misunderstanding WA/WB. after the river is dealt you are always WA/WB.
i think most good players these days realize that calling the flop and turn with a set/fd in this hand is the obv best line. dunno if many 100nl players play this way or not.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Interesting, I'll sometimes just call a set here depending on opponent, but usually just raise it up on the flop as most regs with a K in their hand just love to put you on draw and love to stack off with even say KJ here (especially since we assume PFR will usually have at least KQ when he cbets this multiway flop). I get how in a vacuum v's players who pay attention that calling flop and turn with both draws and sets makes for good balance, but its hard to go past the upfront value of raising sets here in a vacuum. That said I would therefore tend to be really unbalanced since the only draws I'd raise would be KhXh draws and probably just call with bare draws.
[edit] To address your query, I suspect very very few 100nl players would call both flop and turn with a set. It would definately be the exception in my experience.
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Just playing to improve.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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meh bj i disagree, most 17/13 people at 100nl understand what an insanely strong line raising this flop would be.
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AnTman_69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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Renton, Do you check turn here, simply because you don't think i can get 3 streets of value against this particular dude.? He won't call with a worse hand on the turn..Anddd the river? Is this your general line of thought. The more i think about it the better the idea sounds. We can easily b/f river for value if he c/b turn, and we can easily c/f riv if he bets both the turn and the river if we c/c turn.
This is 200nl btw, Nuts and BJ seem to think its 100nl.
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OP
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Iso'ing Iso's
Posts: 117
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Quote:
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i think most good players these days realize that calling the flop and turn with a set/fd in this hand is the obv best line. dunno if many 100nl players play this way or not.
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Explain this please. Is it just because it would be hard as piss to balance raises on either street?
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AnTman_69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by OP
Quote:
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i think most good players these days realize that calling the flop and turn with a set/fd in this hand is the obv best line. dunno if many 100nl players play this way or not.
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Explain this please. Is it just because it would be hard as piss to balance raises on either street? |
Renton answered your question OP.
Quote:
Renton
PostPosted: Wed, 29 Jul 2009, 10:36pm
meh bj i disagree, most 17/13 people at 100nl understand what an insanely strong line raising this flop would be.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I dunno, I cant remember ever seeing a decent player flat call 2 streets on a board thats in any way drawy with a set. They may not raise the flop, but very few in my experience can resist raising the turn. Perhaps I just dont see them showdown much since I would rarely call a river raise if they did.
At 200nl I'd say a 17/13 is almost more a Nit than a Tag. That said even at 200nl I dont think you're seeing bluff raises enough here for a call to be good. I'd only expect very occassionally for something like KT that realises their hand isnt good to turn it into a bluff if you barrel the 3rd time, but I dont think people would do it enough. Likewise if you checked they'd check everything with showdown value that you're ahead of behind.
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Just playing to improve.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AnTman_69
Renton, Do you check turn here, simply because you don't think i can get 3 streets of value against this particular dude.? He won't call with a worse hand on the turn..Anddd the river? Is this your general line of thought. The more i think about it the better the idea sounds. We can easily b/f river for value if he c/b turn, and we can easily c/f riv if he bets both the turn and the river if we c/c turn.
This is 200nl btw, Nuts and BJ seem to think its 100nl.
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Well, nuts seems to believe turn is a bet so there's a 90% chance I'm wrong. I definitely would bet as a standard, but given how tight this player is, KQ and better are gonna make up a bigger percentage of his range than average, and he's also gonna have less flush draws too.
And I said I wouldn't c/c turn, I'd c/f. If c/c is +ev, then betting is better.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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I agree with others, initial thoughts were defo c/f river. OP should note that it will check down in our favour alot.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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