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200nl QQ hand vs Genitruc

  
 
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aislephive
Old 01-21-2008, 12:38 AM     Post subject: 200nl QQ hand vs Genitruc #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is an FTR member, I recognized his sn but I don't think he knows mine. I haven't really played any $1/2 in months but I've played some recently after a downswing. I've not been sitting long but I've been active the last few orbits IIRC. I have stats on him as 25/20 or so, if he has any on me I'm probably 21/18 ish. No history or anything I don't believe either.

Reasoning for flop check is because I think he will stab with a lot of hands on the flop, and I don't want to get raised either. Not that I'll never bet this flop, but I would often check this flop if I completely missed and I like to balance that by checking a hand like this.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($288.85)
SB ($184)
BB ($180.21)
UTG ($198.60)
MP ($300.75)
Hero ($203)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q.
2 folds, Hero raises to $8, Button calls $8, 1 fold, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) A, 9, 6 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets $18, BB folds, Hero calls $18.

Turn: ($61) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($61) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $51, Hero...
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noble007
Old 01-21-2008, 01:57 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I think this is call.

His range is low-mid pairs, Sc's, perhaps some non-dominated broadways and maybe/unlikely AJoAtsA9s
Alot of this range def any diam would take a stab on a scary flop after seeing weakness & after you under-represented your hand alot of this range would take another stab on the river & the 5/6th pot bet after you have shown nothing but weakness/draw indicates that he could be weak here quite often.

(I think we can discount sets/baby flushes after his turn check, its conceivable he could have checked medium A behind for pot control but unlikely & so you're really only behind 4 total combos 0f 89s/910s & his range for betting the river here is sooo much wider even if you include the occasional med A/flush/set)
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Deanglow
Old 01-21-2008, 02:30 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Fold. This is often an ace realizing its good and getting value out of your face up hand. I prefer c/raising the river to calling.
 
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sauce123
Old 01-21-2008, 02:44 AM #4 (permalink)  
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mm fold
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will641
Old 01-21-2008, 03:25 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by sauce123
mm fold
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meeloche
Old 01-21-2008, 03:28 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 Yeah you only beat a bluff and you don't have enough history to reasonably put him on one. I would say this is a fold.



 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 01-21-2008, 03:29 AM #7 (permalink)  
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noble007
Old 01-21-2008, 04:57 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Um I meant fold...

Nah just kidding I'm such a station.
I guess it was a fold but I really think he has to bet anything good on the turn & that just leaves a rivered nine & some pot controlled med Ace that might not even be in genitrucs pre-flop range (as they're really dominated post flop) & isn't bet size too big to try get value out of non-Ace hand & isn't blah blah & isnt blah blah, ok nevermind
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Pelion
Old 01-21-2008, 11:30 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noble007
His range is low-mid pairs, Sc's, perhaps some non-dominated broadways and maybe/unlikely AJoAtsA9s
I cant imagine hes value betting low-mid pairs. Looks alot like a weak ace.
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noble007
Old 01-21-2008, 02:31 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Yeah as I said I think you guys are right.

I didnt think he was value-betting though, thought he was probably bluffing (even if geni has 8/some pair). I thought from genitrucs stand point, aislephive was calling with a bare diamond/some pocket pair & if it's a hand too weak to even value/block bet river, its unlikely that aislephive even has an ace, so on seeing this geni bets nearly pot thinking he will fold out any non-ace pair hand in aislephives range. (I think he would have value-bet smaller with a real hand as most players wouldnt call this bet without at least an ace and as its clear aislephive probably doesn't even have that, then why bet so much?)

- You have just witnessed how I manage to talk myself into calling too many rivers when I'm behind
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 01-21-2008, 02:46 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 If the river wasn't a 9 i would consider calling more.
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Genitruc
Old 01-21-2008, 04:57 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 You had taggy stats - I didn't know it was you aisle - but fwiw it looked like you had TT-KK, the strongest made hand in your range being something like AT w no diamond waiting for the turn to bet vs 3 ppl.

You prob know that though.

Also had I known it was you I'd have played the hand completely differently.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Alexos
Old 01-21-2008, 05:58 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massimo
If the river wasn't a 9 i would consider calling more.
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Alexos
Old 01-21-2008, 05:59 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
You had taggy stats - I didn't know it was you aisle - but fwiw it looked like you had TT-KK, the strongest made hand in your range being something like AT w no diamond waiting for the turn to bet vs 3 ppl.

You prob know that though.

Also had I known it was you I'd have played the hand completely differently.
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Genitruc
Old 01-21-2008, 06:52 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 ya lol I have to 2-barrel that turn or else not bet riv

my line makes no sense but I didn't expect villain to be a particularly thinking player

the replies here are assuming it's a hand between 2 thinking players. without reads I am usually on the level that my opps at nl200 are mediocre multi-tabling taggs, usually incapable of good hand-reading.

my thought process went like this :

preflop : hmm usually 3-bet or fold here but he'll be c-betting almost 100% when this flop hits me, + I'll have position in a multi-way pot

flop : checked to me! whee I only have to worry about dood out of the blinds having a hand. Oh shit, looks like PFRer has a PP bigger than 99, no sense bluffing turn since he's never folding if he has a diamond and I don't need to play high-variance to make $ at these tables

turn : pay attention to other tables

riv : oh man... now I can be almost 100% sure he has TT-AJish and there are trips on board! He'll prob just fold like all of the other meh weak taggs I BETZ!

nh aisle
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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meeloche
Old 01-22-2008, 01:35 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
ya lol I have to 2-barrel that turn or else not bet riv

my line makes no sense but I didn't expect villain to be a particularly thinking player

the replies here are assuming it's a hand between 2 thinking players. without reads I am usually on the level that my opps at nl200 are mediocre multi-tabling taggs, usually incapable of good hand-reading.

my thought process went like this :

preflop : hmm usually 3-bet or fold here but he'll be c-betting almost 100% when this flop hits me, + I'll have position in a multi-way pot

flop : checked to me! whee I only have to worry about dood out of the blinds having a hand. Oh shit, looks like PFRer has a PP bigger than 99, no sense bluffing turn since he's never folding if he has a diamond and I don't need to play high-variance to make $ at these tables

turn : pay attention to other tables

riv : oh man... now I can be almost 100% sure he has TT-AJish and there are trips on board! He'll prob just fold like all of the other meh weak taggs I BETZ!

nh aisle
I found this thought process really helpful.



 
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aislephive
Old 01-22-2008, 09:22 AM #17 (permalink)  
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aislephive
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
ya lol I have to 2-barrel that turn or else not bet riv

my line makes no sense but I didn't expect villain to be a particularly thinking player

the replies here are assuming it's a hand between 2 thinking players. without reads I am usually on the level that my opps at nl200 are mediocre multi-tabling taggs, usually incapable of good hand-reading.

my thought process went like this :

preflop : hmm usually 3-bet or fold here but he'll be c-betting almost 100% when this flop hits me, + I'll have position in a multi-way pot

flop : checked to me! whee I only have to worry about dood out of the blinds having a hand. Oh shit, looks like PFRer has a PP bigger than 99, no sense bluffing turn since he's never folding if he has a diamond and I don't need to play high-variance to make $ at these tables

turn : pay attention to other tables

riv : oh man... now I can be almost 100% sure he has TT-AJish and there are trips on board! He'll prob just fold like all of the other meh weak taggs I BETZ!

nh aisle
I like your thought process as well, and I'd say it's pretty spot on. Definitely against me you should have bet the turn if you wanted to bet the river, because generally checking the turn and betting big on the river is a fishy line when the board doesn't really change. It was more your betsizing that threw me off though, there just aren't many hands in your range that can bet the river big like that without some kind of history between us. If you did show down like A5s or something I would've gotten owned though, but top pair is a hard hand to have. :P

I'm not entirely sure if I would have called a turn bet or not either, it's hard to say. I probably would have just folded with no history, but if we had some kind of dynamic I probably would have peeled again, but I can't say for sure. I'm pretty much a calling station if I'm playing against somebody who I know can handread well when I take a line with a hand that is face up as marginal.
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