|
jimmy44
|
03-16-2009, 03:06 PM
Post subject: 200NL: 3bet pot IP vs unknown
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Place where I can spew
Posts: 1,391
|
|
No reads on villain (2 hands and he was 0/0).
MP folds 68% to 3bet. UTG is fish.
The preflop call is scary, so I checked flop, now when he checks turn, check behind? but then what to do on river if villain bets 1/2, 1/3, 3/4, pot if river is non spade?
Comments on any street welcome!
No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG ($157.25)
MP ($301.50)
Hero (Button) ($200)
SB ($439.40)
BB ($282.60)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 3 , 3
UTG calls $2, MP bets $9, Hero raises $27, 1 fold, BB calls $25, 2 folds
Flop: ($66) 7 , 4, 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($66) J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero ???
Total pot: $138
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
al yell
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
|
|
i like b/f $35 on the flop.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
3-bet pre is pretty gross on a few levels
check down
|
|
|
|
jimmy44
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Place where I can spew
Posts: 1,391
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
3-bet pre is pretty gross on a few levels
|
MP is isolating a lot vs fish. Calling with 33 would only allow us to win a big pot vs fish if we hit a 3, it has no showdown level otherwise. Plus fish is only 75BB deep.
However, 88-99 a call would be good.
|
|
|
|
L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 834
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
3-bet pre is pretty gross on a few levels
|
Please elaborate .
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
why would you blow the fish out and isolate the decent player with one of the worst possible hands to do so?
|
|
|
|
bode
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
why would you blow the fish out and isolate the decent player with one of the worst possible hands to do so?
|
i doubt the intention was to play a postflop pot, but rather pick up 7bbs and move on to the next hand.
i like a b/f $35-40 on the flop also.
|
Quote:
|
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
|
|
|
Ash256
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
|
|
b/f advocates, are you advocating that turn our hand into a bluff?
|
|
|
|
Da GOAT
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
|
|
just calling preflop IP has so many merits instead of 3betting.
on flop i vote for a checkdown, AJ+ will prob go for showdown which we beat
|
|
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
|
|
Toadstool
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 442
|
|
Preflop is horrific, this is one of the worst hands to be reraising with. It's a perfect situation to flat behind in position with. Small pairs and suited connectors are much more valuable with a higher SPR ration, you are ruining the value of the hand by reducing the SPR ration with a 3 bet.
As played yeah check it down and hope to hit a 3, or maybe v bet like 1/6th pot if the river isn't an A or K and he checks.
|
|
|
|
zook
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Toadstool
Preflop is horrific
|
Yep, I 3bet 72o before 33 here and what's more, I hit the flop!
As played check it down I guess. There's good metagame value in showing down 33 here.
|
|
|
|
meeloche
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Toadstool
Preflop is horrific, this is one of the worst hands to be reraising with. It's a perfect situation to flat behind in position with. Small pairs and suited connectors are much more valuable with a higher SPR ration, you are ruining the value of the hand by reducing the SPR ration with a 3 bet.
As played yeah check it down and hope to hit a 3, or maybe v bet like 1/6th pot if the river isn't an A or K and he checks.
|
I'm gonna quote this to reiterate because its pretty important how bad 3 betting is pre.
|
|
|
|
jimmy44
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Place where I can spew
Posts: 1,391
|
|
Thanks for the flame guys!
What about if fish is not there and only MP raises? Still call?
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
probably but it would be a little closer then
|
|
|
|
bigspenda73
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,547
|
|
PF is sooo bad
why do ppl insist on blowing the fish out of the pot all the time?
edit: lulz I should have read the thread, didn't mean to pile on.
|
|
|
|
Da GOAT
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
|
|
if no fish in the pot ill def consider 3betting depending on some factors
|
|
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Toadstool
Preflop is horrific, this is one of the worst hands to be reraising with. It's a perfect situation to flat behind in position with. Small pairs and suited connectors are much more valuable with a higher SPR ration, you are ruining the value of the hand by reducing the SPR ration with a 3 bet.
|
I actually don't totally agree with this. The huge mistake here is blowing the fish out of the pot. In a normal hu scenario vs a tag, calling 33 ip is actually not that profitable in todays games imo, and I wouldn't have a problem with 3-betting it instead.
|
|
|
|
zook
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
In a normal hu scenario vs a tag, calling 33 ip is actually not that profitable in todays games imo, and I wouldn't have a problem with 3-betting it instead.
|
I think 3-betting 33 ip in a normal hu scenario vs. a tag is horrendous. If you aren't messing around on enough flops to make up for the 3.5bb and to get paid once in awhile when you hit a set then that's a separate problem. Regs don't flat many 3bets oop, so you're turning a hand with potential into a bluff and are forced to guess when he 4bets.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
the problem is that 33 is a horrendous hand to "mess around on flops" with. the worst hand to do that with, actually.
|
|
|
|
griffey24
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
the problem is that 33 is a horrendous hand to "mess around on flops" with. the worst hand to do that with, actually.
|
I think zook meant messing around more with other hands so that you get action with your set of 333's when you hit?..
I think this is an interesting spot, and I'm kind of torn on preflop. I definitely agree with the fish in pot, to flat in this particular hand.
I agree with Renton that we don't have great set hunting odds though CO vs Btn necessarily... depends on image I guess.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
|
|
|
IowaSkinsFan
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
|
|
Renton is spot on in every single post.
|
|
|
|
zook
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
the problem is that 33 is a horrendous hand to "mess around on flops" with. the worst hand to do that with, actually.
|
Your hand matters very little when bluffing the flop ip vs. a frequent cbettor b/c opps with vulnerable hands are rarely going to flat oop. You either have a hand you want to stack off with or a hand you're bluff-raising.
I'm really struggling to understand the rationale for 3betting a small pp ip vs a good tag. We can argue about whether 28+:1 set odds is good enough (I think it is) but you also have to consider that taking small pp's out of your flatting range really weakens your range post-flop.
|
|
|
|
griffey24
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
|
|
I would never ALWAYS 3bet a smallish pair IP vs a good tag. But if you have been 3betting a tag often, and expect him to 4-bet bluff you soon, then 3-betting and jamming those pairs is pretty decent even vs his calling range.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
|
|
|
mcatdog
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by zook
Your hand matters very little when bluffing the flop ip vs. a frequent cbettor b/c opps with vulnerable hands are rarely going to flat oop. You either have a hand you want to stack off with or a hand you're bluff-raising.
|
So if we call a 3x raise in position, our opponent c-bets 5x and we make it 13x, he's either getting it in on the flop or folding? I don't know about that.
Quote:
|
I'm really struggling to understand the rationale for 3betting a small pp ip vs a good tag. We can argue about whether 28+:1 set odds is good enough (I think it is) but you also have to consider that taking small pp's out of your flatting range really weakens your range post-flop.
|
The rationale is simply that we don't think we can play them profitably by calling. Any hand that we can't call with is a viable 3-bet bluff candidate.
|
|
|
|
zook
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mcatdog
So if we call a 3x raise in position, our opponent c-bets 5x and we make it 13x, he's either getting it in on the flop or folding? I don't know about that.
|
I think less than 1/2 pot is too small a raise on a lot of boards but I still think that vulnerable hands (i.e. those our bluffraising range has decent equity against) are rarely flatting oop.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mcatdog
The rationale is simply that we don't think we can play them profitably by calling. Any hand that we can't call with is a viable 3-bet bluff candidate.
|
Fair enough. I'm confident enough in the value of position, or arrogant enough perhaps, to think we can play any hand profitably, provided we don't play too many. So of course I'd rather include the ones that make nut hands most often.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by zook
but you also have to consider that taking small pp's out of your flatting range really weakens your range post-flop.
|
it actually strengthens your postflop range, not in the equity sense, but in the playability one.
I'm hesitant to say whether it definitely is or definitely isn't profitable to call a 3.5x open bt/co with 33 vs a decent tag. My gut tells me it isn't. However, that would make it weird that 99.9% of great players insta call there, wouldn't it?
|
|
|
|
zook
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
|
|
Renton, what hands do you think can be played profitably in this situation?
|
|
|
|
JL
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,096
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by zook
Renton, what hands do you think can be played profitably in this situation?
|
Really interested in discussing this.
I am always tempted to call raises from BTN vs CO with suited gappers and aces, but I don't think that is profitable at all. I am not even sure if it's profitable to call here with 76s. Well it might be but 3-betting might be even more profitable. Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
...
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
i think A2s and 54s are more playable than 22
|
|
|
|
JL
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,096
|
|
Yeah but you're going to flop a set more often than a flush/straight and a set is more disguised. This is why I believe small PPs are more profitable than suited connectors/aces.
|
|
|
|
zook
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
|
|
I've got to say, this thread is tilting me more than any in a long time. Almost all hands are playable, you have position vs. a wide range! I don't see why you would take the hands that make the nuts most often and turn them into bluffs.
I flat a wide range in this spot (all suited aces, connectors, gappers plus some offsuit stuff) and using HEM filters I'm running at 120bb/100 over 2k hands flatting on the btn vs. a co raiser. About 300 of those hands are low pp's and I'm winning 330bb/100 while only flopping sets 1 in 9.25 times. Small sample I know, so I'd love to see other people's numbers.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by zook
Almost all hands are playable, you have position vs. a wide range! I don't see why you would take the hands that make the nuts most often and turn them into bluffs.
|
well i already told you that i didn't know for sure if 22 was good or not, so i looked at it all relatively. IMO:
1) cold-calling A2s and 54s is greater expected value in a vacuum than 22
2) cold-calling 72o is -EV in a vacuum
3) there has to be a threshold of profitability somewhere
4) its possible that the smallest pocket pairs are below said threshold
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by JL
Yeah but you're going to flop a set more often than a flush/straight and a set is more disguised. This is why I believe small PPs are more profitable than suited connectors/aces.
|
in todays games the threat of a big hand is comparable in value to the big hand itself. suited connectors/aces flop hands that can apply pressure a pretty large % of the time. With 22 you have a completely unplayable hand on 88% of flops.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
and fwiw i call the small pairs in the situation we're discussing. I generally give the benefit of the doubt when deciding whether to play a hand preflop. I believe the bottom 5 or 10% of most of my preflop ranges for calling/raising/reraising to be spew in a vacuum.
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
06-02-2012, 08:10 PM Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
Linear Mode
