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2 hands from today 50nl

  
 
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XTR1000
Old 03-30-2010, 05:38 PM     Post subject: 2 hands from today 50nl #1 (permalink)  
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#1 Villian plays many hands and appears to be kinda fishy. Rarely b/folds, but is b/calling or c/folding. From his sizing it seems obvious that the noticed the river. Too thin?

$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($75.82)
Hero ($58.25)
BTN ($38.64)
SB ($143.68)
BB ($45)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75, 5 players) Hero is CO
UTG raises to $1.50, Hero calls $1.50, 2 folds, BB calls $1

Flop: ($4.75, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $2.38, Hero calls $2.38, BB folds

Turn: ($9.51, 2 players)
UTG bets $4.76, Hero calls $4.76

River: ($19.03, 2 players)
UTG bets $20.53, Hero goes all-in $49.61

#2 UTG and SB are both rather nitty. Fold turn y/n? Bet river y/n?
$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($56.39)
Hero ($61.52)
BTN ($48.81)
SB ($55.72)
BB ($54.83)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75, 5 players) Hero is CO
UTG raises to $1.50, Hero calls $1.50, BTN calls $1.50, SB calls $1.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($6.50, 4 players)
SB bets $4, UTG calls $4, Hero calls $4, 1 fold

Turn: ($18.50, 3 players)
SB bets $11, UTG folds, Hero calls $11

River: ($40.50, 2 players)
SB checks

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Dex
Old 03-30-2010, 06:07 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 - I think there's a small argument for flatting but villain could easily be trying to shovel more money into the pot with a worse 2 pair or even something funny like AK. Like, I'd be most worried by QT here, because 78 would probably start spaz shovelling the turn, you'd think someone throwing money around would be putting more in with a set on the turn too. But yeah, worse two pairs and your read is he doesn't like to bet/fold, so I like shoving.

Hand 2 - I like how you played it and I check back the river because:

1) I doubt a nitty player is going to give us chance to c/b river when he has worse trips he should be vbetting.
2) Having to bet/fold here means I have to buy a new mouse so it's costing even more money.
3) I want to see what villain did this with, and we can't do that if he c/folds or we bet/fold.
4) If we have the best hand villain will literally never be able to exploit that we checked back something this strong.
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Carroters
Old 03-30-2010, 06:32 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 1. I'd fold preflop unless I know villain is opening some hands we dominate. I think the river shove is probably fine vs this guy since if he's opening wide he can have worse 2 pairs or randoms kings even retardedly played jacks or QQ. He's never b/f anything on this river but total air.

2. Umm I have no idea why we'd fold the turn. Most nits will c/r or c/c a set on this board a lot imo. Also, he can have KQ and also TT-QQ that he has no idea what to do with. I'd never fold the turn and I'd definitely never ever check back this river. You have the best hand so close to always and can get called by worse too. Checking back this river has surely got to be pretty awful.

I'd probably just shove.

 
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gabe
Old 03-30-2010, 07:53 PM #4 (permalink)  
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if in hand 1 that guy is playing too many hands, 3 bet him pre
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shakesss
Old 03-30-2010, 08:37 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I call in Hand 1. He would probably play AK and AA like this for value but the rest of his value range like sets, straights might play the same.

I would bet really small like 4-6 on the river to induce bluffs. I dont think he expects you to have a K every time, and so would probably be betting the stronger part of his value range on the river. I think he has J10, 8 10 and 97 here a lot.
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Dex
Old 03-30-2010, 09:33 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I think a nit would check 97 on the turn when it's counterfeited.

For those who want to shove the river, or even just vbet it, what do we think nit villain's c/c range is? If all his nut hands would bet the river for value, does he even really have a c/c range? Bet and c/fold sure, but how narrow would his c/c be?
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pocketfours
Old 03-30-2010, 09:35 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Call river in #1, call turn and check river in #2.
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minSim
Old 03-31-2010, 02:47 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I think call river in 1 and in 2 I'm pretty shocked by the comments so far. I can't stand raising river with a hand that's basically better then the best hand in our perceived range and all draws missed. I also generally don't give my 50NL villains respect for c/ring a boat after 2 leads, I think they're way more often barreling. Also villain c/ring air is way too much credit. Imo his perceived c/cing range contains certain percentages of KT,KJ,KQ maybe even some high PP's sometimes, depending on betsize.
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Dex
Old 03-31-2010, 04:19 PM #9 (permalink)  
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A few thoughts I guess.

So we're saying nit villain will flat a hand like TT or JJ from the sb behind 3 other calls, and then on the flop lead into 3 people including the UTG pfr on a K-hi board? Then on the turn, leads into 2 people again including the UTG pfr. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's a stretch.

We aren't the pfr and we passively call down flop and turn (rightly I feel), including calling behind on the flop. Villain can't put us on a hand this strong, but it doesn't matter because if villain is firing a third barrel with full houses he's doing it with Kx because Kx and full houses are the same thing - a hand better than how weak/showdown bound our hand looks - and he can't afford to damage his 1.5bb/100 nit winrate by letting us check back.

So essentially, villains ranges look like this to me:

Bet river: full houses, Kx, randomly valuetowning himself with a pocket pair if he has one but I don't think this is a big part of his range.

Check/shove river: Rarer than the above but full houses and sometimes Kx.

Check/call river: Uhhhhh. Sometimes he'll maybe suck at getting value with Kx and c/c like Minisim said but that doesn't seem anywhere near as likely to me as him barrelling the river.

Check/fold: QdJd, JdTd, Td8d and random other draws.

Ultimately, I don't want to have to bet/fold this river but I'm not comfortable calling, and I feel like if I shove I don't know what to expect villain to call with. If we bet we make him fold his draws/weird stuff he led so strongly two streets with, so I check to see what he had and not value town myself vs his continuing range.

Really interesting hand and a good discussion, I'd love to know Pocketfours reasoning for checking the river.
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pocketfours
Old 03-31-2010, 10:22 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Really interesting hand and a good discussion, I'd love to know Pocketfours reasoning for checking the river.
Oops I actually missed that there was a flush draw out there. I guess we can bet the river.
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