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benny999
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10-31-2006, 11:47 PM
Post subject: 2 barrel advice
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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I've been thinking and experimenting with double and triple barrels for a little while, and I found this hand in PT. I don't remember anything, so I'll just make it up based on typical situations...
Villain is loose passive, calling light on the flop and sometimes floating OOP. I have a slag image, cbetting quite a bit but not following through on the turn very much. Do you think checking behind here is better, even though he could have hands like bottom/mid pair and OESD?
Also, can you describe any typical situations that you 2 barrel?
I'm thinking the general idea is to do it against anyone who will call light on the flop but fold most of their range to a strong turn bet. Like when OOP against floating types when it's likely they call flop with a gut shot or whatnot planning to steal the turn (or even to c/r them on the turn)...or if someone likely has a 77 type hand and they c/c like a T high flop, and then an A or K comes on the turn, as long as I have an "in-line" image.
PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
SB ($120.50)
BB ($139.75)
Hero ($100.00)
Button ($141.10)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with A , 4.
Hero raises to $3.5, 1 fold, SB calls $3, 1 fold.
Flop: ($8) 7, K , 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $5, SB calls $5.
Turn: ($18) 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $14
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I will fire a second barrel.
1. mainly if the guy has showed that he will float.
2. mainly if the guy has showed that he will float. (YEAH)
3. If the guy is weak.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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heh...I just edited the same kind of thoughts right after you posted. thanks though.
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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plasma gun is better then double barrel
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I will fire a second barrel.
1. mainly if the guy has showed that he will float.
2. mainly if the guy has showed that he will float. (YEAH)
3. If the guy is weak.
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allright, somebody has got to tell me what "floating" is. i have seen it hundreds of times and cant get it from the contexts. i feel like a donkey. 
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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You call on the flop with the intention of taking the pot down on a latter street.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Triptan3s
plasma gun is better then double barrel
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ha, so i've been bluffing ppl who call with AQ high, and the whole time that's the secret to online poker.
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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you don't know the plasma gun line?
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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is it up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, b, a?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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no dude the cheat enabled code is up, down, left, left, A, right, down.
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AHiltz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Coldbrook, NS
Posts: 1,589
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
no dude the cheat enabled code is up, down, left, left, A, right, down.
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No no no
while circling the directional pad in a clockwise motion 13 time you press the A and B buttons at the same time. Anyone remember that one?
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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It's a game programmers private joke to leave no skin on your thumbs after three days. You finally get invincibilty to work, but you're crying in your bedroom.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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In terms of 2 Barrells, or for that matter 3, I think most new players blatantly abuse the concept. You can tell if someone is a second barrell candidate by seeing two things....
A. Villain has called some flops weak and shown it down as a pattern against you and other players. You'll see the showdowns happen when the opponents give up, and villain doesn't tear it down to disguise. That's because....
B. Villain doesn't like losing big pots.
There is a last criteria that makes the villain a red hot candidate...
C. They raise top pair or better. In other words they're not passive as a habit with a good hand.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Then there is the good 'old Rippy second barrel.
If you raise pre-flop and the flop is something like J73, you bet and are called, if hte turn is an Ace (or maybe King) you should fire again.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Then there is the good 'old Rippy second barrel.
If you raise pre-flop and the flop is something like J73, you bet and are called, if hte turn is an Ace (or maybe King) you should fire again.
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Problem with this is that a lot of people like to bet the ace when they don't have it, but when they do have it, they check behind because "what would they call me with that I beat?" I love snapping off second barrels with a jack on a board like that.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Problem with this is that a lot of people like to bet the ace when they don't have it, but when they do have it, they check behind because "what would they call me with that I beat?" I love snapping off second barrels with a jack on a board like that.
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This is why I bet that Ace, sometimes felt it and you're not most players. Particularly in the weak ass games I play in.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Problem with this is that a lot of people like to bet the ace when they don't have it, but when they do have it, they check behind because "what would they call me with that I beat?" I love snapping off second barrels with a jack on a board like that.
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This is more of a high buy in tournament concept, since you're dealing with the element of survival. Such as if you're in position against a very aggressive opponent, and you turn one high pair, you don't want to get check raised out of the pot.
When dealing with cash and low buy in tourneys, people tend to bet that turned high pair more, because they're not really as concerned about reopening the betting.
I do agree you can find application, but I think it's very tight read specific.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Since I'm not into showing trash hands like Snoop Dog, I rather enjoy getting snapped off now and then. It's great advertising and if you're not getting snapped off every now and then you're probably not bluffing and following through often enough.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Snoop Dog never saw two cards he didn't like. Actually, I hate an offsuit red Q4. I muck it every time. The black one seems better.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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Getting back to the hand in question...
You've just picked up a disguised backdoor nut-flush draw. So you now have other reasons for betting, as well as just firing a second barrel to make him fold.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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I like the bet only because there is a lot of money behind and we have no reason to think he'll blow us off the hand. Otherwise, I like a check.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
reason to think he'll blow us off the hand.
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That's the biggest consideration when you're not stone cold into the second barrell. If you pick up a back door nut draw, it's a huge value choice to check behind a very strong hand (like a set or made rag straight) intending on dropping the hammer, because there's a wide gap between the implied odds you'll be getting to hit, or potentially putting bad money in before your hand is made IMO.
In fact, I sometimes find myself not continuing the flop for the same reason. Like say someone limp calls EP, and the board comes out rags and you have a flush draw. I might have reason to believe my opponent has A) a set - B) Nothing - or C) A small pair unimproved which he'll call with anyway. All of these lend favorably to checking behind, and the flopped set lends extremely to this choice.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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ahiltz
NBA JAMS power-up d fence FTW(goaltending allowed wheeeeeeeeeeeee)
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Very well explained Rondavu (the not always c-betting thing)...
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I like the bet only because there is a lot of money behind and we have no reason to think he'll blow us off the hand. Otherwise, I like a check.
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You pretty much nailed it. When the stacks are deepish I like to keep betting, but when a bet committs us or when a raise blows us out of the pot a check is much better.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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thanks for these insights on realistic hand ranges for fold equity, c/r threat, implied odds/stacks...stuff is making more sense now.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
reason to think he'll blow us off the hand.
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That's the biggest consideration when you're not stone cold into the second barrell. If you pick up a back door nut draw, it's a huge value choice to check behind a very strong hand (like a set or made rag straight) intending on dropping the hammer, because there's a wide gap between the implied odds you'll be getting to hit, or potentially putting bad money in before your hand is made IMO.
In fact, I sometimes find myself not continuing the flop for the same reason. Like say someone limp calls EP, and the board comes out rags and you have a flush draw. I might have reason to believe my opponent has A) a set - B) Nothing - or C) A small pair unimproved which he'll call with anyway. All of these lend favorably to checking behind, and the flopped set lends extremely to this choice. |
i like bet-check-push versus heroic callers who take too much notice of us buying the pot but i love the content here.
In the hand given i love a bet with deep money 150bbs+ and a check with ~100bbs and a push or overbet if the flush hits.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
reason to think he'll blow us off the hand.
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That's the biggest consideration when you're not stone cold into the second barrell. If you pick up a back door nut draw, it's a huge value choice to check behind a very strong hand (like a set or made rag straight) intending on dropping the hammer, because there's a wide gap between the implied odds you'll be getting to hit, or potentially putting bad money in before your hand is made IMO.
In fact, I sometimes find myself not continuing the flop for the same reason. Like say someone limp calls EP, and the board comes out rags and you have a flush draw. I might have reason to believe my opponent has A) a set - B) Nothing - or C) A small pair unimproved which he'll call with anyway. All of these lend favorably to checking behind, and the flopped set lends extremely to this choice. |
i like bet-check-push versus heroic callers who take too much notice of us buying the pot but i love the content here.
In the hand given i love a bet with deep money 150bbs+ and a check with ~100bbs and a push or overbet if the flush hits. |
this makes sense, and thanks for that idea for checking behind monsters on the turn.
I don't do that enough anymore (did it too much when I first started playing, then kinda overcompensated).
And Rondavu's point of the value decision on the turn makes more sense now as far as how it applies to made hands, not just backdoor draws.
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