|
pocketfours
|
06-15-2009, 06:20 AM
Post subject: 2/4: TPTK button battle
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Villain is Taylor Caby, he's made some prop bet to play 2/4. His stats are very close to mine at 22/18/3. We've got a pretty crazy dynamic going on where I've 4bet him about 10 times in the last 30min and he's folded every time. He's clearly playing super solid.
Minraised pot, TPTK, drawy board. 140BB deep. Whats our plan here?
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Button ($564.80)
Hero (SB) ($823.05)
BB ($314)
UTG ($420)
MP ($641.80)
CO ($400)
Preflop: Hero is SB with A , Q
3 folds, Button bets $8, Hero calls $6, 1 fold
Flop: ($20) Q, 7 , 5 (2 players)
Hero?
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
ATOTHEC101
|
|
Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
|
|
c/r's, you flatted a hand as strong as aq so you could raise q and ace high flops reppin credibly little, especially with your agro image.
I just 3 bet pre.
|
|
"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
|
|
|
|
|
|
I agree with c/r for value
if you never c/r a hand this strong for value, your c/r flop range will be polarized to sets and semi-bluffs on this board which means it's like lol snapcall with Qx
also, I don't like 3b pre unless you're willing to felt given crazy 4b going on
I would just assume he'd insta repop you because you've been going after him so much
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
c/r's
|
You getting it in here?
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iopq
also, I don't like 3b pre unless you're willing to felt given crazy 4b going on
|
I completely agree and I'm certainly not willing to felt.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
c/r's
|
You getting it in here? |
actually I didn't see we were kind of deep here and that we have the Ad
might not be the best idea to c/r if you're 140BB deep actually
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iopq
might not be the best idea to c/r if you're 140BB deep actually
|
Again I agree. So do we b/c or c/c? If we c/c we probably have to c/c down because TC would probably vb KQ three streets.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iopq
might not be the best idea to c/r if you're 140BB deep actually
|
Again I agree. So do we b/c or c/c? If we c/c we probably have to c/c down because TC would probably vb KQ three streets. |
sounds good to me
personally I'd fire three barrels with a draw whether I make it or not unless it's super obvious everything in my range missed
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
How often does he check the flop behind?
How are you playing your bluffs here?
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
How often does he check the flop behind?
How are you playing your bluffs here?
|
I'm sure he cbets this flop a lot, but I would still lead a fair amount as a bluff. The problem with b/c is that it builds the pot and we don't want that.
|
|
|
|
ATOTHEC101
|
|
Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
c/r's
|
You getting it in here? |
I'm intending to get it in on future streets for value if called and the turn and river come blanks. If he 3 bets my c/r I probs flat and get it on the turn. Having the ace diamonds is also important as he can put you on the ace high f draw and we have that little bit of extra equity if we are infact beat on the flop.
I don't hate leading the flop.
|
|
"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think the ace of diamonds actually makes his range stronger because he is more likely to raise an ace high flush draw than a low flush draw because he has an overcard and a draw to the nuts
so when he does 3b a c/r he has almost no flush draws left in his range because he can only have an overcard with the king and it would be a huge mistake to get it in vs. an ace high flush draw
|
|
|
|
jyms
|
|
Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
|
|
You guys are nuts if your thinking of 3 betting pre or C/R flops. P4's already told you his read about the prop bet so GP is not looking to have a level war. This is str8 up less than a 100BB hand and we are not looking to get a stack in here 140BB deep. He's already been aggressive and has had no action. Sooner or later he will adjust and we would like to adjust before that and have a hand when he does.
As for the hand, I think Cbetting large here sets it up to play a large pot and may make GP try to control. If we try to pot control too much OOP he may recognize it and put pressure on us. By Cbetting large we will put him in either pot control mode or stack mode and he plays his hand pretty face up, and we can then fold to the flop raise, or if he calls we can check the turn and if he's trying to control he will probably just check behind if he's afraid to stack off or he may fire small to steal. I think it's easier to play after that. I certainly am not looking for 3 streets of value in this situation OOP vs Taylor during a prop at what turns out to be micro stakes for him.
|
|
|
|
dsaxton
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
|
|
I think leading 3 streets for value is good.
|
|
|
|
griffey24
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
|
|
Is he the type that would adjust to your preflop agression by calling you more or by 4betting you?
If he's going to call you lighter since he thinks you're getting out of line I'd definitely 3bet this pre. I'd find it very hard not 3betting over these lame button min-raises.
As played, I lead a lot so I'd probably lead 3 here. But if you c/r flops often, I'd feel pretty fine about c/r this flop and playing a big pot.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by griffey24
Is he the type that would adjust to your preflop agression by calling you more or by 4betting you?
If he's going to call you lighter since he thinks you're getting out of line I'd definitely 3bet this pre. I'd find it very hard not 3betting over these lame button min-raises.
As played, I lead a lot so I'd probably lead 3 here. But if you c/r flops often, I'd feel pretty fine about c/r this flop and playing a big pot.
|
ok, what if he kind of does both, are we going to 3b kind of small and flat a 4b? or if he's been flatting a lot lately and suddenly decides to 4b since we've been doing it to him?
|
|
|
|
Numbr2intheWorld
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
|
|
I 3-bet pre, someone try to convince me otherwise.
as played anything but lead or c/r is a big waste of your hand imo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Massimo
I 3-bet pre, someone try to convince me otherwise.
as played anything but lead or c/r is a big waste of your hand imo.
|
Do you flat a 4b?
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Massimo
I 3-bet pre, someone try to convince me otherwise.
|
I think a 3-bet pre is fine, but I like a call as well.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Massimo
as played anything but lead or c/r is a big waste of your hand imo.
|
Hero checks, TC bets $12, Hero raises to $42, TC raises to $112, Hero...
Your move?
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
its a pretty clear check raise
whether you have an answer to the commitment question is pretty irrelevant frankly because its so unlikely he'll 3-bet you ever.
also i would 3-bet pre for sure with your image. I think you are gonna be folding to a 4bet, but the value you get from his calling range with your image makes it mandatory imo.
also, how are you 4betting him 10 times in 30 minutes with direct position on him? different table?
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
if he 3bets the flop probably just call down. I think he would probably bet more than 12 into 20 with a big hand.
I odn't really like leading the flop because its so small, i feel its just slighly underplaying your hand. I don't particularly like having a leading range here at all though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
its a pretty clear check raise
whether you have an answer to the commitment question is pretty irrelevant frankly because its so unlikely he'll 3-bet you ever.
|
but it's relevant because c/r, bet turn and we have what a psb left on the river?
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
its a pretty clear check raise
|
Depends on how often and what sorts of hands he c-bets.
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
also, how are you 4betting him 10 times in 30 minutes with direct position on him? different table?
|
He was on 5 or 6 of my tables.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
its a pretty clear check raise
|
Depends on how often and what sorts of hands he c-bets. |
qxx flop deep minraised pot
i would imagine his betting range is very near 100%
|
|
|
|
Alexos
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
|
|
agree with 3bet pre and c/r flop
i don't see why we should be scared of getting RR in both cases
|
|
Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alexos
agree with 3bet pre and c/r flop
i don't see why we should be scared of getting RR in both cases
|
3bet pre is fine, but here's a high likelihood of him playing back and I'm not happy getting it in with AQ. Calling is good for deception as well.
Does anyone want to c/r flop and fold to a 3bet?
|
|
|
|
Alexos
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
|
|
If there's any likelyhood of him playing back at us id be ecstatic to c/r and get it in on this flop
we're not talking about some random nit here, we're talkin Taylor Caby playing 2/4 nl
|
|
Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alexos
If there's any likelyhood of him playing back at us id be ecstatic to c/r and get it in on this flop
|
What are you expecting him to call a shove with? I'm pretty damn sure he doesn't 3bet KQ. Did you notice eff stacks are 28 times the pot?
TC is on a winrate prop bet, he isn't messing around. Getting it in on this flop is pure spew.
|
|
|
|
Alexos
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
|
|
Sure I agree, he's not gonna call a shove with much worse. But lol at folding to his flop 3bet, just call down then, its not a very difficult spot with the :Ad:
|
|
Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
|
|
griffey24
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alexos
If there's any likelyhood of him playing back at us id be ecstatic to c/r and get it in on this flop
|
What are you expecting him to call a shove with? I'm pretty damn sure he doesn't 3bet KQ. Did you notice eff stacks are 28 times the pot? |
Are you assuming he has NO in position calling range to your c/r on this flop? I'm sure he doesn't just fold his entire range here, he surely has a calling range.
Any Qx might peel a c/r, and insider might peel and some OESD even. I agree that we're not fist pumping if we c/r and get 3bet, but I still think the c/r in itself has value vs the range that will call in position.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by griffey24
Any Qx might peel a c/r, and insider might peel and some OESD even. I agree that we're not fist pumping if we c/r and get 3bet, but I still think the c/r in itself has value vs the range that will call in position.
|
Of course it has value, nobody is arguing against that.
|
|
|
|
Alexos
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by griffey24
Any Qx might peel a c/r, and insider might peel and some OESD even. I agree that we're not fist pumping if we c/r and get 3bet, but I still think the c/r in itself has value vs the range that will call in position.
|
Of course it has value, nobody is arguing against that. |
I'm not sure what you're arguing then.
You say he might play back at us on the flop with a 3bet, which is fine, even more of a reason to c/r, and call his 3bet if he does (rarely imo).
I rly don't see how c/c this flop is any better here. And as Renton pointed out I just don't have a leading range in this spot either so thats not rly a great option either..
|
|
Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
|
|
ATOTHEC101
|
|
Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
|
|
I flat his 3 bet and make a little gay bet on turn to induce, something like $82, it'll look like either we have a drawing hand that want's to price ourselves in or a weakish made hand that wants to see where it's at. With your seemingly very agro dynamic preflop I'm sure this will rub off on his postflop play against you. You have effectively the 3rd strongest hand in your range (Thats if you fold 75/q7 pre, which you should as gl playing those profitably postflop oop against TC), folding to his 3 bet would be lol exploitable/ terrible.
|
|
"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alexos
I'm not sure what you're arguing then.
|
I'm saying we don't want to play a big pot with this hand in this spot.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
guys he's peeling to the c/r with any pair or draw/gutshot he bets
|
|
|
|
griffey24
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
|
|
I mean.. I feel like this hand is a no question stack-off 100bb's deep. So we're only discussing it cause we're a bit deeper here. But I'm not sure being 140bb's deep really warrants changing how we would play this hand enough.
If anything, the fact that we're deep might make him MORE likely to peel any flop c/r lighter, given his perception of the implied odds.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
guys he's peeling to the c/r with any pair or draw/gutshot he bets
|
his 3bet flop range please, preferably taking into account small 3bet size?
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
i would say its mostly value
i would fold (yes i know in a previous post i said I'd call down)
I just think that in position on this board he's gonna be more likely to float than to 3 bet with his bluffs. He's also probably megatabling. I would just put him on set/AA and move on.
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
i would say its mostly value
i would fold (yes i know in a previous post i said I'd call down)
I just think that in position on this board he's gonna be more likely to float than to 3 bet with his bluffs. He's also probably megatabling. I would just put him on set/AA and move on.
|
THANK YOU Renton! So we're down to c/r and fold to 3bet. Sounds good to me. Others can lol all they want.
|
|
|
|
Alexos
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
|
|
wtf is with ur ppl, everyone is giving attitude now ?? lol
Did I misread your quote though?
"3bet pre is fine, but here's a high likelihood of him playing back" ..
Are you talking of him playing back by 3betting flop here?... If so why fold
|
|
Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
|
|
Numbr2intheWorld
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
|
|
Alright p4's, lets say he 4-bets and you shove. It might be a breakeven play maybe a little -EV (hey if you really thinks it's a little -EV, fold (although with metagame its probably good anyway)).
Now think past this. He's raising the button with 35-40% of hands. When you reraise he's not going to fold all but 5% or something ridiculous like that, especially since you seem aggressive. He is going to call with over 12% because he would be totally exploited. These are going to be a lot of worse Aces, which you are totally dominating. It's a great situation for you and you should reraise.
A lot of players make the mistake of not wanting to raise for value then fold, although a lot of times its the best play.
|
|
|
|
Numbr2intheWorld
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
|
|
Regarding the c/r, folding. Having the Ad in your hand definitely makes this plausible.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
does ad really make a huge difference here? i would think he shouldn't be very often lol getting it in with nfd here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
you should NEVER fold if you're playing against me if you c/r and I 3b you though
I'm probably spewing with a flush draw like :Kd: :Jd:
I tend to do that a lot even though I cannot has fold equity most of the time
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Massimo
Alright p4's, lets say he 4-bets and you shove. It might be a breakeven play maybe a little -EV (hey if you really thinks it's a little -EV, fold (although with metagame its probably good anyway)).
Now think past this. He's raising the button with 35-40% of hands. When you reraise he's not going to fold all but 5% or something ridiculous like that, especially since you seem aggressive. He is going to call with over 12% because he would be totally exploited. These are going to be a lot of worse Aces, which you are totally dominating. It's a great situation for you and you should reraise.
A lot of players make the mistake of not wanting to raise for value then fold, although a lot of times its the best play.
|
3bet pre is of course my standard play in case that wasn't clear from earlier posts. Doesn't mean you can't occasionally mix up your game, especially when gameflow gives you a good spot. Here I don't think he would expect me to flat AQo and I also thought his 4bet range is going to be wider than usual.
|
|
|
|
griffey24
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Here I don't think he would expect me to flat AQo
|
I def. agree that he probably won't expect you to have AQ here very often at all. So from his perspective, a c/r on this board practically only represents 777 and 555 for value potentially.
I wouldn't be surprised if he called a c/r and a turn barrel with any pair > 7x or something.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Here I don't think he would expect me to flat AQo
|
I def. agree that he probably won't expect you to have AQ here very often at all. So from his perspective, a c/r on this board practically only represents 777 and 555 for value potentially.
I wouldn't be surprised if he called a c/r and a turn barrel with any pair > 7x or something. |
Of course, which is why we might even pull off three streets here.
|
|
|
|
IowaSkinsFan
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Massimo
Alright p4's, lets say he 4-bets and you shove. It might be a breakeven play maybe a little -EV (hey if you really thinks it's a little -EV, fold (although with metagame its probably good anyway)).
Now think past this. He's raising the button with 35-40% of hands. When you reraise he's not going to fold all but 5% or something ridiculous like that, especially since you seem aggressive. He is going to call with over 12% because he would be totally exploited. These are going to be a lot of worse Aces, which you are totally dominating. It's a great situation for you and you should reraise.
A lot of players make the mistake of not wanting to raise for value then fold, although a lot of times its the best play.
|
3bet pre is of course my standard play in case that wasn't clear from earlier posts. Doesn't mean you can't occasionally mix up your game, especially when gameflow gives you a good spot. Here I don't think he would expect me to flat AQo and I also thought his 4bet range is going to be wider than usual. |
Honestly, I think there's no value in "mixing it up" with AQo from the SB. I don't see what hands this will defend and what of his lines it will exploit given certain board textures. Just threebet, possibly fivebet it in pre. There's really no big issue with slightly spewing pre in this spot at all.
|
|
|
|
IowaSkinsFan
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Here I don't think he would expect me to flat AQo
|
I def. agree that he probably won't expect you to have AQ here very often at all. So from his perspective, a c/r on this board practically only represents 777 and 555 for value potentially.
I wouldn't be surprised if he called a c/r and a turn barrel with any pair > 7x or something. |
Of course, which is why we might even pull off three streets here. |
You flatted from the sb, he could think the vast majority of your range is 88-22. If he called more streets than a c/r'ed flop with KQ I'd think he'd be majorly spewing.
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
06-02-2012, 08:10 PM Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
Linear Mode
