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Renton
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09-22-2007, 03:19 AM
Post subject: 2/4 top pair deep
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)
SB ($76)
BB ($692.45)
UTG ($426)
MP ($639.85)
Hero ($834.85)
Button ($819.70)
Preflop: Hero is CO with  ,  .
2 folds, Hero raises to $16, 2 folds, BB calls $12.
Flop: ($34)  ,  ,  (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $24, BB calls $24.
Turn: ($82)  (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $56, BB calls $56.
River: ($194)  (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $176, BB raises to $596.45, Hero ?
Villain is LanderD, a very tight and aggressive player i played with many months ago at 1/2, prty sure he's loosened up some since then though. We've not shown down any hands at this table, but he did raise the flop after calling my 3bet pre a while ago in position, and i folded. I'm playing like 18/16 and aggressive.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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against the described opp, why did u bet the river if it wasn't to induce a c/r? did you have history of 3 barelling or anything?
i would've bet more on the turn and check the river most likely.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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easy 3 streets of value here imo
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
easy 3 streets of value here imo
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I felt the same way initially but benny has a good point.
I talked to a good player extensively about this hand, and came to the conclusion you have to fold.
I think the argument for calling is.
1. I think its pretty obvious that he can exploit your calling range on a three barrel, or some may think this is the case.
2. People tend to want to make sick bluffs deep, this is one of those sick bluffs.
3. I think if he has a bad image he really tends to c/r the flop here a lot more than he takes this like with a 6.
But that's really it. Obviously his range is a 6, boat, or air.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
easy 3 streets of value here imo
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i disagree completely. I usually check flops like these deep, unless i'm playing wildly aggro.
In terms of the river, i'm really surprised he c/r here. This guy isn't a spewmonster, so you would think this would be an easy fold...
The problem is that i think you can take a bare trips out of his range. I just would find it hard to believe that someone like him would c/r the river with that this deep. So really all i can put him on is 64 and 44, or a very very terribly and trickily played QQ or 22. That's a really really small number of hands to put an aggressive player on.
So uhhh, yeah, i just don't know. I probably just fold because i just can't make a decision.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
easy 3 streets of value here imo
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i disagree completely. |
Yeah, me too. I usually check behind turn, but depending on history I might check behind flop or river instead. As played you've got to fold imo.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Wow.. this is one confusing spot.
I've been staring at this hand for a bit, and I cannot think of any hand that will play this way. Is it possible that he flat calls QQ PF without 3-betting?
The only hand I can think of is 66, or A6 based on PF, but I'm not sure A6 would push at the risk of running into QQ.
hmmm.. weird.. I'm sooo tempted to call here just because I really can't see what he can have.
As played, I prob value bet the river a less if I'm going to 3-barrel, not sure how many worse hands will want to call a third barrel pot-size bet on this board.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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pretty sure it doesn t matter a whole bunch what u do here (unless u push, which would be gross)
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
easy 3 streets of value here imo
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i disagree too. opp is not a calling station, he's a decent/good player.
if you bet the river there's a higher chance he turns 88/QTs hands into a bluff than just calls down, since you're likeliest hands are AA/KK/KQ/AQ/etc...
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
easy 3 streets of value here imo
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I get the feeling that this is a pretty common leak of yours and a leak for many TAGs in short handed mid stakes games.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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what about betting like 2x pot on the river if u checked the turn?
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
..his range is a 6, boat, or air...
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I don't see any reason to bet the river when villain seems so happy to let us keep sticking chips in.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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warpe, his range only becomes polar like that once he raises the river
others, ppl call down in spots like these VERY lightly. even good players. I think he'd very often take an autocheckcall 3 streets line with any Q, all of which i beat. And he'd definitely get to the river with some medium pairs.
This seems like a solid spot for me to make a range merging bet, considering that I know that he knows that I know he can't call it blah blah blah.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
warpe, his range only becomes polar like that once he raises the river
others, ppl call down in spots like these VERY lightly. even good players. I think he'd very often take an autocheckcall 3 streets line with any Q, all of which i beat. And he'd definitely get to the river with some medium pairs.
This seems like a solid spot for me to make a range merging bet, considering that I know that he knows that I know he can't call it blah blah blah.
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lol yay QJs and QTs... maybe Q9s? three hands? He folds these hands some of the time anyways, and i really doubt he calls medium pairs. There just isnt much value here.
I think i check behind the flop unless hes being a complete spewtard.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
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I'm kinda with Renton on this one, though as I said before I think we have value here from worse Q's from like a half pot bet or something smaller.
I just don't see what strong hands aren't c/r us on this turn, after we've defintely shown with our second barrel that we like our hand. Especially since most of you think most players would check through this river.. unless Renton has been overly aggro 3-barrelling. I don't see why he'd risk all that lost value by going for the river c/r instead of the turn.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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i see absolutley no reason to bet river or to call a c/r unless we know he can push you off a one pair hand by simply raising.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
warpe, his range only becomes polar like that once he raises the river
others, ppl call down in spots like these VERY lightly. even good players. I think he'd very often take an autocheckcall 3 streets line with any Q, all of which i beat. And he'd definitely get to the river with some medium pairs.
This seems like a solid spot for me to make a range merging bet, considering that I know that he knows that I know he can't call it blah blah blah.
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ur talkin about tagfish/mediocre players...good players will realize u are likely to "thin" bet the river.
and is your +ev from range merging more than the -ev from folding the best hand??
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Halv
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pro crastinator
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Super marginal spot, I think I call because I really don't see people checking monsters three times with 200BB stacks very often. There really aren't that many monsters he could legitimely have either. Official guess: he has 66.
I bet turn and check river back 99% here though, is he really c/c 99 three times?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by benny999
and is your +ev from range merging more than the -ev from folding the best hand from someone capable of taking this line with bluffs+monsters?
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well, not when i call, lol.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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lol nh then...i guees.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HalvSame
Super marginal spot, I think I call because I really don't see people checking monsters three times with 200BB stacks very often. There really aren't that many monsters he could legitimely have either. Official guess: he has 66.
I bet turn and check river back 99% here though, is he really c/c 99 three times?
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k, so basically what you are telling me is that if villain were u, then villain would have a range which consist of the vast majority of hands like medium pairs and weaker Qx, and that my best play against you on t his river would be to basically bet a range that you can play perfectly optimally against (that range being KK+ and sets/bluffs)?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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or better yet, you are telling me that i should bluff you on this river 100% because you always fold anything that is beat by KQ
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Halv
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pro crastinator
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Yes  .
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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To everyone that is saying check through this river, I'm assuming you're saying this because we think our KQ is only getting called by better hands on a third barrel.. ie: QQ,66,A6 or maybe AQ. So does this mean you are all also checking through KK and AA on this river?
The only difference I see between the KQ hand and KK/AA (based on villains PF play) is that we are now ahead of AQ. I can't imagine not firing KK/AA again on this river. Are ppl checking through with those over pairs as well?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
To everyone that is saying check through this river, I'm assuming you're saying this because we think our KQ is only getting called by better hands on a third barrel.. ie: QQ,66,A6 or maybe AQ. So does this mean you are all also checking through KK and AA on this river?
The only difference I see between the KQ hand and KK/AA (based on villains PF play) is that we are now ahead of AQ. I can't imagine not firing KK/AA again on this river. Are ppl checking through with those over pairs as well?
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i think its more a case of what villain has called us down with and feels he can push us off of on the river considering we can value bet super thin on the river.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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paging gabe and sauce123
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
paging gabe and sauce123
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lol ill IM sauce.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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i think the whole point isnt about betting the river being a bad play, it's that you didn't expect an aggro/thinking player to c/r.
betting is marginal, and so is calling the c/r, but i prob would do both if i decide to bet, for the reasons halvsame wrote.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I think if you call here correctly then the river bet was good, but if you fold it was bad, because while I don't expect him to call a river bet with JJ-77, I could see him c/r it all in.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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id bet smaller on river and fold to the c/r
if you think hes the type to c/r light (unlikely) then just start trying to induce him to do that when u have big hands
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