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OP
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11-24-2009, 05:51 PM
Post subject: 2/4...Straight vs GP333
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Iso'ing Iso's
Posts: 117
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No history....I've 3bet him a few times, first one he's called
** Side Note: I would have made it 45-50 pre but I didn't realize he 4x'ed it until it was too late and i autopiloted a standard 10BB 3 bet IP
Turn play and river action?
P.S. Gabe I haven't outted my Stars SN on this site, I want to keep it like that please
$2/$4 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
4 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
Stacks:
CO ($455.20)
BTN ($400)
SB ($424.40)
Hero (BB) ($519.20)
Pre-Flop: ($6, 4 players) Hero is BB  
2 folds, SB raises to $16, Hero raises to $40, SB calls $24
Flop:    ($80, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $65, SB calls $65
Turn:  ($210, 2 players)
SB bets $72
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Your 3bet pre is terrible but other than that id call and call nonclub river.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I wouldn't 3bet this, especially not vs gabe. He doesn't fold to 3bets ever, and plays well post.
As played, agree with ISF call call. Your turn calling range (as gabe would perceive it) has a lot of pair+clubs/high clubs, so he'll probably bluff river again on a brick if he's bluffing.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Luke999
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: England
Posts: 238
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Easy flat Pre
Call and evaluate.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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gabe has AA or KK imo and isn t folding so I d raise
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
gabe has AA or KK imo and isn t folding so I d raise
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So is he bluffing? o.O Im totally baffled by your read. Can you explain for me please. Is it mostly because he didnt 4bet pre? Im sure he must call wider than that if hes getting totally hammered on. I really cant see anything postflop that looks even a little like an overpair.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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oh man, genitruc, I hope you're levelling lol.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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uhm yea, call turn call river, hes probably just stone bluffing tbh
i dont hate your 3bet pre, fcking nits
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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defending by calling oop w a marginal range seems pretty shitty and then taking this fishy line seems even shittier
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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and ya, i wasn t levelling at all
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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whatd you think i thought you had
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
defending by calling oop w a marginal range seems pretty shitty and then taking this fishy line seems even shittier
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But dont you guys have like balanced ranges or something?
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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balancing ranges at midstakes when you re not playing the same ppl all the time is hugely overrated
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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The player pool isnt that big at 2/4 is it? But ok I get your point. So is it just preflop that makes you think AA/KK? I really dont see why either of those would play postflop that way.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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maybe gabe is just messing around but in my experience when a good player wants you to put them on a weak range in a spot where you're likely to think that they re just getting sick of you, their range is usually strong
i smell a tarp (gone wrong from gabe's perspective)!
obviously i could come out of this looking like a total idiot but wtv
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I just think there's already inherently enough mistrust bvb, that ppl are getting it in so much lighter, I doubt SB will flat too many big hands when his 4bet won't get credit anyways.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
uhm yea, call turn call river, hes probably just stone bluffing tbh
i dont hate your 3bet pre, fcking nits
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+2. I'd just call him down and not give it a second thought ever. I really don't see how preflop is terrible either. What types of hands is it OK to 3-bet bluff BVB, if it's terrible to 3-bet this one?
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
uhm yea, call turn call river, hes probably just stone bluffing tbh
i dont hate your 3bet pre, fcking nits
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+2. I'd just call him down and not give it a second thought ever. I really don't see how preflop is terrible either. What types of hands is it OK to 3-bet bluff BVB, if it's terrible to 3-bet this one? |
I don't hate 3betting this against players that fold a lot to 3bets, or play predictably postflop and fit or fold a lot. But gabe doesn't fold to a lot of 3bets, and doesn't play fit or fold/predictably post flop.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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So were threebetting 25% (loose estimate) of the time or something versus his preflop opens from the SB? That seems like overkill. I'm doubting any gameflow or whatnot is going to matter with the amount of tables gabe is likely playing.
Postflop its pretty difficult to put him on a hand here.
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OP
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Iso'ing Iso's
Posts: 117
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
whatd you think i thought you had
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I have no idea and leveled the shit out of myself on the river.
(For the rest of you guys, I flatted the turn which I would do with 100% of my continuing range....I don't think I have a shove range there and he snap-jammed a clumsy, irrelevant river)
Here was my confused back and forth thought process on the river:
-I couldn't see you (or thinking players) stealing initiative to go 2 streets for value when a lot of my range is folding the river when bet into and bluffing when checked to since you're turn bet looked like you were blocking 8x8c type hands and buying a river card and a free showdown. Plus, the turn is a heavenly barrel card for my air and I would think you would think I would barrel it relentlessly.
^^This made me want to call it off
-But it's probably the best value line since I'm pot controlling 2 pair and strong absolute value type hands and b/f alot of my air and overpairs that picked up equity. But I'm calling all of those hands on the turn and I can Hero call them all too on blank rivers. Plus I wouldn't expect you to try to blow an unknown off of a 7 unless the river complicates the board more.
^^This made me want to fold
I knew I was LOLsmashed by your value range since I wouldn't think you were batshit enough to shove sets and 2 pair for value. Maybe you are though, who knows.
I felt like such a vagina folding and i felt VEEEERRYY uneasy about it but he twisted my arm and I put my tail between my legs and cried uncle.
Plus the guy was like 16 tabling and i rarely see mass multi tablers execute elaborate and intricate bluffs like this.
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OP
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Iso'ing Iso's
Posts: 117
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
i dont hate your 3bet pre, fcking nits
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Obviously, I figure anyone that advocates 3bet/5bet jamming 44 for value in the BB vs BTN won't mind this play. YAHH MEEAN!
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by OP
I felt like such a vagina folding and i felt VEEEERRYY uneasy about it but he twisted my arm and I put my tail between my legs and cried uncle.
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Wow... I really think we have to call this. I feel like he will c/r flop a good % of the time with his clubs even.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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OP
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Iso'ing Iso's
Posts: 117
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^^^
Oh yeah I'm pretty sure I got owned here and 24 hours later and I'm still disgusted with myself. Maybe I'll just say i was balancing my folding range?
I think I'm just gonna go put on some Michael Bolton, take a bubble bath, read the latest Cosmo and get in touch with my inner pussyness.
It's all good though I ran a 25/50 reg off the streets (Molswi47; he was playing lower obv) later last night and had him tilt challenging me to 200/400 HU4ROLLZ. That made me feel a little better.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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it d be fun if gabe let us know what he had!
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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id go call/call even if the river was a club. I would shove if he bet 100$ or more
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
it d be fun if gabe let us know what he had!
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i think i showed =]
i dont think preflop is bad, but against me i think its better to not have a polarized 3 betting range. since this was our first time playing together its probably fine.
i thought u would just fold all your air on the turn, and there were enough hands you would peel vs that small bet and then fold vs a river shove that i thought this line was profitable.
also in general when im playing back at someone because i think they have a wide range in a 3b pot, i'm hardly ever just c/cing a flush draw 100b deep
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
it d be fun if gabe let us know what he had!
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i think i showed =]
i dont think preflop is bad, but against me i think its better to not have a polarized 3 betting range. since this was our first time playing together its probably fine.
i thought u would just fold all your air on the turn, and there were enough hands you would peel vs that small bet and then fold vs a river shove that i thought this line was profitable.
also in general when im playing back at someone because i think they have a wide range in a 3b pot, i'm hardly ever just c/cing a flush draw 100b deep |
So wait, your saying you OOP floated the flop with air? I was thinking you probably had 88 or something.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Pretty poor hand reading to give him many better hands than a Straight, Three to Seven.
Preflop is fine if you don't think you can call a 4x raise for a profit vs gabe (very possibly true).
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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this hand is more interesting if you have QQ
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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i think i like raising the turn to like 160$ so that you don't lose value to all the bad river cards (he can shove big clubs, sets and overpairs that he might c/fold on the river). I guess if we think he has pure air here a lot calling is best but i def would put gabe on some kind of hand here given his line.
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Family Cruise IMO
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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kinda cool turn bet, it widens your perceived value range when very few lines make possible. But did OP fold anyway? Wow, i don't think i'd fold anything that beats all bluffs.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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i had KcQ btw. thoughts on flop play?
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OP
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Iso'ing Iso's
Posts: 117
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Pretty poor hand reading to give him many better hands than a Straight, Three to Seven.
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You're absolutely right, and I definitely have a bad case of "monsters under the bed" when I'm up against players I KNOW are levels and miles ahead of me and I'm trying hard to work on that without donking off stacks left and right.
Sometimes I just think about spots way to hard and confuse myself when my gut instict usually turns out to be the right play. Plus, it seems everyone seems to run the nuts out on me recently and that is obviously negatively affecting my decisions.
Hopefully a few sessions with ISF will straighten this kind of shit out.
C'est La Vie
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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who are you on stars? 
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Bold OOP float
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I mean certainly double barreling the turn as a bluff when you c/c the flop seems good so its hard to like it but if you think he is going to check his cbetted air on the turn a majority of the time and you can get him to fold an overpair on some dangerous looking cards it seems cool.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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yeah this is a cool hand. So we like gabe's turn bet so long as he's b/folding the turn and shoving every river?
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Family Cruise IMO
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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hmm I'm not sure what I think about gabe's line. I don't mind it on a 4 turn or 7 turn, but I don't think its very credible to run a bluff on a club here. I guess betting a club is ok to get hero off air, but I don't think hero is folding any legit hands to barrels when a club turns.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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idk i think gabe should just lead the flop if he's gonna try anything here. once he c/c's the flop he has to win the pot a staggering amount of the time to break even
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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i was only going to lead the straight cards, i think i would have checked everything else assuming he would check behind often and i would bet river
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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ya i like the fake pot control-lead river line, usually ppl don t think it s a bluff
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
ya i like the fake pot control-lead river line, usually ppl don t think it s a bluff
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Well one reason they give it credit is because they know they would need to be folding a pretty unrealistic amount of their range in order to be exploited by it.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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no they dont. i think he will have complete air alot on the turn ( he 3b 47s, if hes doing it with this think of his entire range he gets to the turn with).
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
no they dont. i think he will have complete air alot on the turn ( he 3b 47s, if hes doing it with this think of his entire range he gets to the turn with).
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sure but doesn't your float mathematically need to work something like 80% of the time?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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just seems like a really bad or really good line and if gabe thinks OP thinks he's good...
if I was in OP's spot, I'd expect gabe to expect me to think this is a bluff, so I'd fold.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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and get owned
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Actually had time to calculate this since I'm not playing anymore.
Since you call 65 into 80 on the flop, that means if you are going to bet 1/2 the pot on the river (we'll say 100), that means you'd be risking 165 to win 145, so you'd need it to work over 53% of the time assuming the turn always goes check check and you never improve. IMO the times the situations lays itself out such that you cannot win the pot more than makes up for your implied odds improving or your implied bluff odds in situations like what happened (leading some turns), so imo by the time the turn goes check check and the river blanks off, u are gonna need to win at least 2/3, possibly 3/4 or more.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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OP: do you understand just how completely absurd folding is here? i feel like you dont get it
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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good post renton. its also worth mentioning that since his range his wide he should be barreling K/Q turns which makes me some more $
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Quote:
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OP: do you understand just how completely absurd folding is here? i feel like you dont get it
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word.
Also, if hero is really that scurred of villain then it doesn't really matter what line villain takes, he can just do whatever he wants as long as it confuses hero because it will clearly get him to fold like 95% of his range. In which case, I think it's great. Against someone not shaking in their boots, I think this line is probably okay. Really just doesn't work (as a bluff) against very perceptive opponents IME though.
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