|
pocketfours
|
07-06-2009, 05:48 PM
Post subject: 2/4: rivered a flush, hate life.
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Villain is 30/25 good lag. What is going on? Is this some thin value or bluff or nuts or what? Does my hand not look like a flush?
He took a weak line, so I thought: "I'll make a small bet and snap a raise". Then he raised pretty fast and I started convincing myself to fold. What's my optimal river play?
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($400)
Hero ($660.80)
SB ($580.90)
BB ($406)
UTG ($860.40)
Preflop: Hero is BU with 6 , 5
UTG bets $12, UTG+1 calls $12, Hero calls $12, 2 folds
Flop: ($42) 10, A, 3 (3 players)
UTG bets $32, 1 fold, Hero calls $32
Turn: ($106) Q (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks
River: ($106) 7 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $42, UTG raises to $184, Hero?
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
griffey24
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
|
|
Given your sizing, I'd say your hand looks more like AJ/A9 going for value against a hand like KQ/QJ on the river, than a flush.
I don't think I'm finding a fold here, especially since I'd expect players to barrel FD's a good percentage of the time on this board and also lead the river with a flush sometimes.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
|
|
|
Alexos
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
|
|
Agree with griff, unless they had QcXc exactly, and even then most ppl barrel.
What I don't understand is why you'd expect him to c/r bluff this river a lot, he can't credibly rep a flush that often, and our line is a lot of flushes/gutshots that picked up a pair on the turn and will check down/Tx/and Ax that might or might not bet.
I'd just prefer to bet a little bigger here, which is my standard for delayed bluffing this board and also flushes/Ax hands played this way..
|
|
Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
you must think on a much higher level than me because I snap that shit faster than a black woman saying "aw naw he didn't"
|
|
|
|
Numbr2intheWorld
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
|
|
I'm gleefully calling here.
btw i think you played this very well (BB = utg and you are button here, correct?)
|
|
|
|
bjsaust
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
|
|
Does he expect you to either raise flop or bet turn with your FD's much?
Generally I'd expect a LAG to barrel his draws wouldnt they?
|
|
Just playing to improve.
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
yeah i can't see folding as even being close to an option
also im gonna go ahead and be a rebel and say that you should probably raise flop or fold, unless you are calling with some sort of plan to pull a lot of crazy shit, i.e. i highly doubt you'll make money on the virtue of your hand alone.
|
|
|
|
meeloche
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Massimo
I'm gleefully calling here.
btw i think you played this very well (BB = utg and you are button here, correct?)
|
this
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by griffey24
Given your sizing, I'd say your hand looks more like AJ/A9 going for value against a hand like KQ/QJ on the river, than a flush.
|
I would never vb AJ/A9 in this spot against a good player. There's exactly zero bluffs in my range. If he doesn't know that, then this is of course a fistpump snap. But I said he is good, so at the moment I sure assumed that he would know that.
The key to my thinking here is: I would never value bet anything less than a flush. If he knows that, then my hand is a bluffcatcher.
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
also im gonna go ahead and be a rebel and say that you should probably raise flop or fold, unless you are calling with some sort of plan to pull a lot of crazy shit, i.e. i highly doubt you'll make money on the virtue of your hand alone.
|
I expect to get two free cards fairly often since there are no good cards to barrel and UTG has a very wide range here.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
i can't see not valuebetting AJ. Its practically a freeroll. at least minbet it.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
also im gonna go ahead and be a rebel and say that you should probably raise flop or fold, unless you are calling with some sort of plan to pull a lot of crazy shit, i.e. i highly doubt you'll make money on the virtue of your hand alone.
|
I expect to get two free cards fairly often since there are no good cards to barrel and UTG has a very wide range here. |
seems like vs your range a blank is a decent barrel card?
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alexos
I'd just prefer to bet a little bigger here, which is my standard for delayed bluffing this board and also flushes/Ax hands played this way..
|
What are you delayed bluffing with? 4h5h?
|
|
|
|
Alexos
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
|
|
P4.. I have a hard time imagining that your flop call + turn check + bet river line on this board is only a flush, and never anything else.. i dont get it...
|
|
Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
I barrel this board SO much
you have so many hands like JT/pp/gutshot floats that fold the turn it's not funny
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
i can't see not valuebetting AJ. Its practically a freeroll. at least minbet it.
|
What's the point of b/f AJ when I can just show it down? Why would he call with less? Even a minbet?
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
because you should take any freeroll. If you had a player so locked down and knew he had you so locked down that you couldn't value bet practically a total freeroll here, then shit. Shit is all i got to say.
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
also im gonna go ahead and be a rebel and say that you should probably raise flop or fold, unless you are calling with some sort of plan to pull a lot of crazy shit, i.e. i highly doubt you'll make money on the virtue of your hand alone.
|
I expect to get two free cards fairly often since there are no good cards to barrel and UTG has a very wide range here. |
seems like vs your range a blank is a decent barrel card? |
If you like to see your barrel being shoved over.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
also im gonna go ahead and be a rebel and say that you should probably raise flop or fold, unless you are calling with some sort of plan to pull a lot of crazy shit, i.e. i highly doubt you'll make money on the virtue of your hand alone.
|
I expect to get two free cards fairly often since there are no good cards to barrel and UTG has a very wide range here. |
seems like vs your range a blank is a decent barrel card? |
If you like to see your barrel being shoved over. |
so he should just expect you to morph your tpnk and Txish hands into extremely ambitious bluffs?
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
not to mention all the trashy fds and gutters you call flop with
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
i think he can fairly unexploitably bet you on the turn with all of his gutters and draws just on isf theorem alone.
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
i think he can fairly unexploitably bet you on the turn with all of his gutters and draws just on isf theorem alone.
|
You are probably right.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
i think he can fairly unexploitably bet you on the turn with all of his gutters and draws just on isf theorem alone.
|
You are probably right. |
do u believe that or are u tired of arguing? I think its a pretty interesting discussion.
|
|
|
|
mcatdog
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
|
|
If your description of the dynamic is accurate, you should check back the river. You are never bluffing and villain knows that you are never bluffing so you can't value bet anything less than the stone nuts. The only way out of this sad state of affairs is for you to bluff the river with the bottom of your range.
|
|
|
|
IowaSkinsFan
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
|
|
im in the calling boat. His line seems incredibly odd anyways
|
|
|
|
Numbr2intheWorld
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
i think he can fairly unexploitably bet you on the turn with all of his gutters and draws just on isf theorem alone.
|
1) that doesn't mean he'll actually do it.
2) his range is already pretty strong given he c-bet into two people and raised utg.
3) You have position
4) Everyones a calling station
5) I don't think getting it in on the flop is +EV.
6) you have position
7) you have position
you have position
you have position
you have position
you have position
you have position
you have position
you have position
you have position
you have position
you have position
you have position
you have position
|
|
|
|
Galapogos
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
|
|
Keeping in mind I'm a pretty awful tagfish, but what exactly do we rep with a flop raise vs a good lag? Won't he view our range as heavily weighted towards draws and be able to rape us with his perceived range?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
|
|
|
mcatdog
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Galapogos
Keeping in mind I'm a pretty awful tagfish, but what exactly do we rep with a flop raise vs a good lag? Won't he view our range as heavily weighted towards draws and be able to rape us with his perceived range?
|
I don't think so at all. We still have 12 combos that are happy to get all-in on the flop: 33, TT, ATs, KQcc, KJcc, QJcc. If villain tries too hard to outplay us, it's not going to work out for him. Suppose we raise the flop to $100, he 3-bets us and gets it in with 98cc, which has 27% equity against our stackoff range. He picks up $174 when we fold, and when we don't gets all-in for a pot of $1338 in which his equity is $361, i.e. he loses $255 as compared to folding. So he needs us to have 18 or more bluff combos in our range for this to be +EV. If we raise with a range like 65, 75, 76, 86, 87, and 97 of clubs, JT, QT, and KT of hearts, as well as our 12 monsters, then we really aren't exploitable at all in the manner you suggest.
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Massimo
5) I don't think getting it in on the flop is +EV.
|
We're folding to a shove, no?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I would like to state that villain probably folds to a lot of c/r
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
06-02-2012, 08:10 PM Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
Linear Mode
