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zook
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04-18-2008, 08:44 PM
Post subject: 2/4 - QQ played passively and turned into a bluff
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Villain is 18/16/3.2 over a fair number of hands, but I think they're mostly mined b/c I don't have any notes on him.
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $2/$4 - 5 players - Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $1214.95
Hero: $682.70
Button: $450.60
SB: $388
BB: $422.10
Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with Q  Q 
UTG folds, Hero raises to $14, 2 folds, BB calls.
Flop: 7 2  J ($30, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $24, BB raises to $77, Hero calls.
Turn: 9 ($184, 2 players)
BB bets $135, Hero calls.
River: A ($454, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $272
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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i dont really like the turn.
but i do like the river.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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i usually 3-bet the flop and get it in. Did you not have the image for this?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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I think you can win this quite often with $200 on the river against most players.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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i don't like this at all as its very tough for you to have the Ks.
I also consider folding the turn. I think that the fact that you didn't 3bet the flop would lead me to believe that you thought his range was too strong to do so, therefore I don't see how his range doesn't beat you on the turn.
I think that if you do bluff, it should be for a smaller bet representing thin value with a weak spade.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I also consider folding the turn. I think that the fact that you didn't 3bet the flop would lead me to believe that you thought his range was too strong to do so, therefore I don't see how his range doesn't beat you on the turn.
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Agree.
Can you believe that he took this line and made the river call with 8s8d? NH sir.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I also consider folding the turn. I think that the fact that you didn't 3bet the flop would lead me to believe that you thought his range was too strong to do so, therefore I don't see how his range doesn't beat you on the turn.
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Agree.
Can you believe that he took this line and made the river call with 8s8d? NH sir. |
lol wow. you cant beat soul reading!
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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i dont think villains line is that crazy, i mean if you are going to c/r then this is a decent card to double barrel and then on river he assumes your range is polarized and is getting decent odds.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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i think his call is pretty standard
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Can we not shove the turn here?
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
i think his call is pretty standard
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It should be anyway. Most people balance their ranges so badly on 4-flush boards.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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So whats the worst spade you guys think we should be calling with here? I would think if we're calling with 8 we should be calling with any spade almost. Only reason we fold 3 and call with 8 is we're afraid the villain is bluffing with the best spade sometimes.
I'm also thinking that it would be theoretically bad to ever c/r with a middling spade here (as the villain and assuming we are deeper) because zooks river betting range is pretty polarized to high spades and no spades hands. Or do you think it would be ok to c/r this river with the 8 ever?
Does this mean that we should be range merging more and betting stuff like 9 on this river versus thinking opponents?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Basically villain should call here with any spade regardless of what level zook is on imo.
If zook is on a low level then its super hard for him to have a big spade and he never valuebets a small one. If he's one a decent level he may valuebet some small spades, but i still think its far fetched that any spade wouldn't beat zook's range.
I'm pretty sure the best play on zook's part would be to bet an unbalanced range of only value here, i.e. 10s+, without some really sick history.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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always bluff the 4 flushes when
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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im trying to figure out why you flatted the checkraise on the flop? the only hands that villain is checkraising here have to be sets, FD's, Jx's, middle pr's for protection/balance of range, and pure bluffs (and the occasional slowplayed AA/KK--which with no history doesnt make sense).
now you can't know which of these he's doing it with (if we are assuming hes a thinking player and knows what hes doing), however when u look at that range, you are ahead of like 90% of it, maybe more ... and villain will go w/ a decent portion of that range for all the money ... by flatting, you allow another spade to fall off and kill your action (or beat you), and force yourself to play the rest of the hand super passively. this is extremely bad for metagame, and kinda creates a reverse implied odds situation by just flatting.
for all these reasons. b/3b flop --GET IT IN!!!
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The Odds God
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 252
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Bet/3bet the flop. river is good.
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The secret to success in poker is to rig the odds in your favor.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I'm pretty sure the best play on zook's part would be to bet an unbalanced range of only value here, i.e. 10s+, without some really sick history.
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Is his fold equity that bad in these spots in these games? Even the calling station live game donks fold to the 4-flush threat a lot.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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yea i dont mind the river against most players with these statistics tho there r exceptions
turn is also a clear fold without the Qs
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I'm pretty sure the best play on zook's part would be to bet an unbalanced range of only value here, i.e. 10s+, without some really sick history.
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Is his fold equity that bad in these spots in these games? Even the calling station live game donks fold to the 4-flush threat a lot. |
That's not an argument for bluffing here. Someone with a clue is going to fold more often than a calling station in general but they're going to call lighter in the right spots (such at this one).
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