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zook
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05-10-2009, 12:29 AM
Post subject: 2/4 - KK, A flops
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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I've played with villain a fair amount but have no notes, so he must be pretty unremarkable. I don't *think* he's a standard minraiser b/c I would make a note of that, but it's possible he always minraises utg and I've missed it somehow. He's running 18/14/2.2 over a lot of hands, only raises 10% utg, doesn't fold to 3bets much (43%) and 4bets a lot (22%).
Play and plan?
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop
BB ($840.40)
UTG ($485)
MP ($117.50)
CO ($112)
Button ($844.50)
Hero (SB) ($400)
Preflop: Hero is SB with K , K
UTG bets $8, 3 folds, Hero raises to $30, 1 fold, UTG calls $22
Flop: ($64) 8, A, 2 (2 players)
Hero...
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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it could easily have been a misclick too. also the converter screwed up and isnt showing the suits on the flop or your kings.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by will641
also the converter screwed up and isnt showing the suits on the flop or your kings.
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suits are showing up fine for me...
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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I think I'd check against this guy because I find they'll maybe fire a bluff on one street if you show obvious weakness but they're not capable of putting you in really tough spots even thought your hand is face up to a certain extent.
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Irish what would be your range for checking this flop? Are you checking AA? AK? air/junk?
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AnTman_69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
Irish what would be your range for checking this flop? Are you checking AA? AK? air/junk?
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Does his range matter so much if we don't think villian is good enough to exploit it?
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AnTman_69
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
Irish what would be your range for checking this flop? Are you checking AA? AK? air/junk?
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Does his range matter so much if we don't think villian is good enough to exploit it? |
Nah I agree if villain isn't good enough it doesn't matter I was just wondering because this is a spot I sometimes have trouble with and I've just been thinking about checking flops like way more often in 3b pots.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
Irish what would be your range for checking this flop? Are you checking AA? AK? air/junk?
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Against this guy it's pretty much JJ-KK and that's it. Obviously thats really exploitable but I don't think he'll cop. Against better players I don't have a checking range on this flop.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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irish are you betting 100% in this spot vs better players?
I'm still stuck on this spot in 3bet pot
I guess I have 2 questions, Zook's original and my own -- Zook's is as given with a low fold to 3bet, but what about this same spot with a more normal fold to 3bet, maybe 65%?
Say Vs. high fold to 3bet, If I bet flop here in 3B pot, what can opponent possibly call with that he wouldn't have 4bet with that we're ahead of?
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I think I'd check against this guy because I find they'll maybe fire a bluff on one street if you show obvious weakness but they're not capable of putting you in really tough spots even thought your hand is face up to a certain extent.
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I would do this as well...
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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bet imo
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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hate to say it but it's opp dependent. this is why i'm trying lately to rely much less on stats and more on what i see players do and taking notes on them.
if you are firing here with bluffs and Ax type hands then id fire with JJ-KK as well, an 18/14 i think rarely calls unless they have a set or AJ+ here UNLESS you feel they like to float a fair bit.
if you do check then make sure you are checking sets/AA/AK/AQ type hands here as well and possibly CR them small in which case you can CR small with bluffs as well.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Ok, so for better or worse, I bet this flop 100% of the time. Next question...
Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K
UTG bets $8, 3 folds, Hero raises to $30, 1 fold, UTG calls $22
Flop: ($64) 8, A, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $30, UTG calls $30
Turn: ($124) A (2 players)
Hero... ($340 eff. behind)
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Yah I bet this flop a lot too, mostly because c/c has no bluffs, but this is a flop we'd bet with all of our bluffs mostly. Also he's rarely folding any midpair type hands.. TT-JJ etc.
I like b/ck/bet here.. and probably c/c if he bets.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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on this turn the board is great for us, i don't think this type of villain generally would want to get too much money in with hands we crush (lower pp's) so i think if we're confident he calls another couple of streets with those hands we can fire 1/4-1/2 pot bets here and hope we get some value.
on the other hand if he's likely to bluff we can use a c/c line and perhaps reevaluate the river and if he bets make a decision based on his bet size.
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I like to check the turn because he's going to bet all of his floats
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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I really don't like the idea of playing a hand suboptimal just to disguise your hand. It's unfortunate that turns your hand faceup as JJ-KK, but the inherent value of your hand, relative to this villain's range, just doesn't justify a bet. He has a range consisting of worse hands that mostly fold to a bet, and better hands that never fold. Betting for deception / balance / so you can be a badass on the forum for c-betting 100% of your range, doesn't alter the facts of the situation at hand.
Now, many good regs will give you credit for c-betting a wide range of air on this flop and they will autocall the flop with 99+, and the flop is the most likely to street to get this value against them. That is a good reason to bet because it actually involves putting villain on a range and getting max value against that range. But I don't think this is the right opponent for a flop bet.
In general I think people are too afraid to play the check-call guessing game. It's not fun but sometimes every other way of playing the hand is really bad, so I guess we should try to get better at reading people's souls in these spots instead of taking clearly suboptimal lines to avoid the spots altogether (not necessarily referring to this specific hand because a flop bet does have some merit here).
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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c/c turn, c/decide (mostly fold) river. If he checks back turn you have to VB river.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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It seemed to me betting for value is pretty clearly the best play on this flop? ...mcat's reasons should suffice.
Definitely Irisheyes' c/c turn c/f river, but VB river if villain c/b turn is the best line after this turn card.
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