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gabe
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07-21-2007, 04:28 AM
Post subject: 2/4 hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
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villian has been at table 40 hands and seems quiet, i have reraised people pre twice since hes been there, without showing down (took one down pre and check folded flop).
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Button ($490.85)
Hero ($435.05)
BB ($666.30)
UTG ($509.80)
MP ($77.10)
CO ($503.85)
Preflop: Hero is SB with K , A .
UTG raises to $16, 1 fold, CO calls $16, Button calls $16, Hero raises to $90, 1 fold, UTG folds, CO folds, Button calls $74.
Flop: ($216) 2 , 6, 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $120, Button raises to $400.85, Hero calls $225.05 (All-In).
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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sauce is going to love you for this one.
Yes, i had a discussion with sauce about a very similar hand, it seems like a call, although it's very marginal.
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gabe
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Moderator
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thoughts on betsizing are cool too
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
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i call this 1% of the time.
and i'm probably 3betting preflop about 20% of the time.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
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I really want to know what this guys PF range is with his line.
I cannot think of any hands that are in his range other than 99-JJ. AQs/AJs/AKo.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
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it's a simple pot odds question...
we're getting 3.5:1 to call.
against a range of JJ-99,AcQc,AcJc,AcKd, we're 31%, which is about 2.2:1.
so i guess that's a call...and not all that marginal.
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Harry
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
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I call. You probably have 6 outs.... occasionally 0. Also A-high is good here sometimes. Backdoor FD as well!
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PSU Class of 2011 weeeeeeee!
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
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The nit in me says bad call, but I really believe it's marginal because pot odds dictate a call. He's seen you do this twice before in 40 hands, so his range could be pretty wide...You can assume he's got a pocket pair or a flush draw, maybe even a set...
Spike a non-club ace and type SHHHHHIIIP IT!
P.S. I'm probably way off here, I'll check this thread tomorrow when I'm sober.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
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If you were going to get it in based purely on odds vs. his range why did you size your flop bet the way you did??????
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trikflow77
If you were going to get it in based purely on odds vs. his range why did you size your flop bet the way you did??????
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ideally we want the villain to fold. we only have ace high. we certainly cannot bet less than 50%, and betting 75-100% is clearly spew. it's one of those situations when you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
btw, this is why i wuss out and don't 3bet out of the blinds with AK/AQ.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
it's a simple pot odds question...
we're getting 3.5:1 to call.
against a range of JJ-99,AcQc,AcJc,AcKd, we're 31%, which is about 2.2:1.
so i guess that's a call...and not all that marginal.
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That range is wrong IMO, but its impossible to do this calculation on pokerstove because he's an unknown. I'd include some sc's that have fd's, some straight draws, and some low pp's, and probably sets SOMETIMES.
I actually like just potting the flop, it's more scary of a bet and it makes the hand a lot easier.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
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spenda and i had a relatively heated discussion. at first i was adding in 22,66,77 into the range, and he said that's not possible.
i'm about 70% agreeing with him. the thing is, low PPs and SC are not calling that huge 3bet from hero.
i would break it down to the following:
TT/JJ, probably 50% of the time.
air, 40%
QQ+, 5%
sets/SCs/FDs, 5%
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trikflow77
If you were going to get it in based purely on odds vs. his range why did you size your flop bet the way you did??????
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ideally we want the villain to fold. we only have ace high. we certainly cannot bet less than 50%, and betting 75-100% is clearly spew. it's one of those situations when you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
btw, this is why i wuss out and don't 3bet out of the blinds with AK/AQ. |
This makes no sense. I was asking this because hands in his range that you didnt ( i agree with ISF that the hypers range is off) list might fold if you bet more on the flop. But this could be offset (dont think it really is) by hands that come over the top of a weak bet that he has beat. This range is narrower though so i dont know.
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gabe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trikflow77
If you were going to get it in based purely on odds vs. his range why did you size your flop bet the way you did??????
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when i see people make those flop bets that make them commit themselves to the pot, i usually just put them AK. i didn't want that guy to do the same vs me. i might have been thinking one level too deep though.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
spenda and i had a relatively heated discussion. at first i was adding in 22,66,77 into the range, and he said that's not possible.
i'm about 70% agreeing with him. the thing is, low PPs and SC are not calling that huge 3bet from hero.
i would break it down to the following:
TT/JJ, probably 50% of the time.
air, 40%
QQ+, 5%
sets/SCs/FDs, 5%
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switch air % and sets/sc/fd's % and its better.
But he doesn't have JJ/TT 50% of the time, he may have a pocket pair like 35% of the time.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
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ISF, if you're button, are you calling the 3bet preflop with 22-99?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
ISF, if you're button, are you calling the 3bet preflop with 22-99?
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no, but a donk who will cold call a raise pre and then cold call a threebet would.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
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What type of hand takes this line is really beyond me except AQs/AKo/TT/JJ
I just don't see calling off nearly 1/4th your stack with sc's or small pp's. Gabe's read doesn't lead us to believe he's a total donk so I'm sticking with my previous reads.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
ISF, if you're button, are you calling the 3bet preflop with 22-99?
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no, but a donk who will cold call a raise pre and then cold call a threebet would. |
gabe never said anything about button being a donk. button has been "quiet"
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Fnord
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Ewwwwwwwwww
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
ISF, if you're button, are you calling the 3bet preflop with 22-99?
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no, but a donk who will cold call a raise pre and then cold call a threebet would. |
gabe never said anything about button being a donk. button has been "quiet" |
Only donks would cold call a threebet pre after previously cold calling a raise, and IMO most of the time this is a pp (yes, JJ-TT being the most likely of them, but not a ridiculous amount over the others) or an sc.
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Fnord
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$120 pre-flop and shove any flop Heads-up?
hhhhhmmmm....
50,490 games 0.313 secs 161,309 games/sec
Board: 6c 7c 2d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 23.268% 23.27% 00.00% 11748 0.00 { AhKc }
Hand 1: 76.732% 76.73% 00.00% 38742 0.00 { JJ-22 }
That's a pretty tight range too. Figure he's going to be doing shit with stuff like AQ/AJs and such every now and then.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 23.268% 23.27% 00.00% 11748 0.00 { AhKc }
Hand 1: 76.732% 76.73% 00.00% 38742 0.00 { JJ-22 }
That's a pretty tight range too. Figure he's going to be doing shit with stuff like AQ/AJs and such every now and then.
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that works out to 3.3:1, and we're getting 3.5:1, which makes it a very marginal call.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I'd place this as a marginal call. I'm struggling to suss out a preflop range for this guy though - at this level, do you get people calling large amounts of money on the button to see a flop with less than big cards, possibly to use position to steal on pretty much any flop?
Are sc's more likely to see a flop here than low PPs? I could easily see him having something like 98 here, although I may be on a wrong track.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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afterwords i looked up his stats and he was 15/11, but he ended up having 87h this hand which is weird. i didnt suckout and he immediately left the table.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
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If he's calling from the button there, he's probably planning to make some bluffs on the flop. You're also ahead of some draws. I think this is a marginal call, but a pretty easy one, especially with that bet size. I'd say that a lot of people would view that size as weak, not strong (even though the majority of better players and 1knl and 2knl players will probably interpret that bet as stronger than a commiting bet), you were probably thinking on too many levels vs an unknown 400NL guy.
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sauce123
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trikflow77
If you were going to get it in based purely on odds vs. his range why did you size your flop bet the way you did??????
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agree 100%. id bet 175 or something and call a shove or check fold. bet/fold is by far ur worst option here. also open shoving the flop isnt particularly terrible against some opponents (i do this a lot with aces, kings, queens in spots like these). as played how could the call be anything other than marginal or bad. ur obviously behind his range but i hate folding and i htink ur odds r good enough even as played so stcik it in and pray. villain also played terribly.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
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o yea and gabe ur definitely thinking waaaayy too deeply about how hes interpreting ur flop bet sizing- even more so vs an unknown. his "reads" would be like the least of my concerns.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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