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IowaSkinsFan
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01-25-2008, 05:20 AM
Post subject: 2/4 Deep versus Marshall
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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PLEASE NOTE STACK SIZES
I haven't played with Marshall much, he is spewy and aggro though, and seems so far that he really wants to take advantage of the fact he's 250bb deep in position. However, he hasn't gotten the opportunity yet. He plays like 23/20 with heavy aggression in EP rather than LP. I've never seen him call a threebet like this, your guess of a range is as good as mine. Also if you don't fold please tell me call or shove turn. Alternate flop lines are fine as well (If you say fold here you may want to express we should check the flop).
Relevant hand: We are deep about same stack sizes, I raise pre with ATs, he calls on the BU with JJ. He calls three barrels with bottom set on a KQJ flop with turn and river blanks.
POKERSTARS GAME #14803832463: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2008/01/25 - 00:20:34 (ET)
Table 'Tsai' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: DO IT LEE ($547.70 in chips)
Seat 2: heybude ($1434.70 in chips)
Seat 3: Marshall28 ($1239.70 in chips)
Seat 4: seki09 ($408.90 in chips)
Seat 5: willybeer22 ($390 in chips)
heybude: posts small blind $2
Marshall28: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to heybude [Qh Ah]
gary8888 has returned
seki09: folds
willybeer22: folds
DO IT LEE: raises $12 to $16
heybude: raises $36 to $52
Marshall28: calls $48
DO IT LEE: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 3h Ac]
heybude: bets $84
Marshall28: raises $124 to $208
heybude: calls $124
*** TURN *** [7d 3h Ac] [2d]
heybude: checks
Marshall28: bets $388 (about $580 left)
heybude:
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Deanglow
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In this spot I like a check/call on the flop. I also think bet/folding the flop is better than bet/calling.
He has to know exactly what you have by the turn so I would probably fold. I guess it depends on his level.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
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Well its pretty damn scary that he's raising on this board, after flat calling bottom set all the way down in the earlier hand.
I agree with deanglow. He has to put us on AK at this point, and he's still filling it up. His range for cold calling pre is sooo wide given how deep the two of you are. He could definitely be calling with all pairs PF (including 33/77) getting odds to set.
I probably end up bet calling flop (even though b/f is prob best), and re-evaluate turn based on what he does. Given his bet here, I prob c/f.
The board is pretty dry here, with no real draws. I can't imagine continuing here this deep.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
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Good spot to fold. Your cards are face up.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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|~|ypermegachi
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worst hand i see him having is AK.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
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That JJ hand is so weird and unlike him
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
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Checking the flop against this guy is pretty decent. You could probably value c/c 3 streets because he'll be v-betting a lot worse (and will be betting a lot of the time).
I think what you really don't want to do against this guy is stack off here. It sucks cause calling the flop bet almost implies calling a turn bet, and no card here is going to help you. Although, i think when he calls you rr here he's planning on bluffing a good amount flops, ones like this maybe.
It's hard for people to do analysis on this guy when you haven't played with him. He's really just a lagg station... he'll make some moves with mid pair, and then when you come over the top he'll call anyways. He just doesn't fold really. I'm not sure if he's dumb enough to have AJ here, i usually would say he would but because of that JJ hand i'm thinking otherwise.
One thing that makes me want to call him is the awkward bet-sizing on the turn. He leaves no room for you to c/r and a bad stacks on his river bet. I'm guess that with a hand of value he's betting closer to 300, allowing you room to c/r over as a bluff and giving him 2/3 pot on the river. If you wanna give that read a lot of weight, you can stack off cause honestly i think he's bluffing here 25% of the time regardless of bet-sizing tells.
Now on what to do when you want to stack off, well i think the difference between c/c, c/c, and shoving over right now is pretty negligible.
Even though marshall is pretty bad, i'm usually just gonna quit the table if i'm deep with a laggtard and he has position. Unless i'm like 4 tabling.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
One thing that makes me want to call him is the awkward bet-sizing on the turn. He leaves no room for you to c/r and a bad stacks on his river bet. I'm guess that with a hand of value he's betting closer to 300, allowing you room to c/r over as a bluff and giving him 2/3 pot on the river.
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Seabass
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
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I would fold and..
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
quit the table
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mcatdog
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As Massimo noted I'm not qualified to comment on this hand or opponent but a lot of the responses in this thread confuse me. Why does the previous JJ hand makes you scared of this raise? If anything it shows that this deep, he's afraid to raise for value without the stone cold nuts, but he probably still bluff-raises a lot of flops. When someone's range has lots of bluffs and not very many real hands that's when you call them down. Is he good enough to know that you know that, and be going for thin value this time? That would be so sick if he owned you with AK.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
As Massimo noted I'm not qualified to comment on this hand or opponent but a lot of the responses in this thread confuse me. Why does the previous JJ hand makes you scared of this raise? If anything it shows that this deep, he's afraid to raise for value without the stone cold nuts, but he probably still bluff-raises a lot of flops. When someone's range has lots of bluffs and not very many real hands that's when you call them down. Is he good enough to know that you know that, and be going for thin value this time? That would be so sick if he owned you with AK.
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Him not raising that JJ hand tells me.. yess.. he's afraid of raising this deep unless he's sure he's ahead. Now all of a sudden he's raising on an A high board that likely hit us hard.. . Which means he probably assumes he's ahead (and that the only hand he's behind is AA).
Its like when a nit or call centre suddenly raises. Its scary cause they aren't raising that much.. so you get the hell out of the way.
obviously in this case though.. it seems we may be misunderstaind this villain and basing too much on that one hand OP mentioned.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
As Massimo noted I'm not qualified to comment on this hand or opponent but a lot of the responses in this thread confuse me. Why does the previous JJ hand makes you scared of this raise? If anything it shows that this deep, he's afraid to raise for value without the stone cold nuts, but he probably still bluff-raises a lot of flops. When someone's range has lots of bluffs and not very many real hands that's when you call them down. Is he good enough to know that you know that, and be going for thin value this time? That would be so sick if he owned you with AK.
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This is what I thought people would think as well, and I agree with your assesment.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
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the given history with the bottom set hand makes me wanna call him down here
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Ash256
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Does pretty much everyone at 2/4 size their bets competently? His flop raise was small, no? cuz that scares me.
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nutsinho
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a) he played jj well
b) he is actually very spewy in most spots
c) i would call the turn and fold the river cause he isnt batshit insane enough to shove river after we call turn
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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IowaSkinsFan
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I agree that the JJ hand was fine, Though I do think raising is better given his image. I wouldn't say calling three streets was retarded by any means.
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nutsinho
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I agree that the JJ hand was fine, Though I do think raising is better given his image. I wouldn't say calling three streets was retarded by any means.
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i think vs most this is true but against me i still would only stack off with one hand that he beats, mayyybe KJ but i rarely have that when he has JJ. Therefore I think calling down with JJ is best and value betting large if checked to at any point.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Quote:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I agree that the JJ hand was fine, Though I do think raising is better given his image. I wouldn't say calling three streets was retarded by any means.
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i think vs most this is true but against me i still would only stack off with one hand that he beats, mayyybe KJ but i rarely have that when he has JJ. Therefore I think calling down with JJ is best and value betting large if checked to at any point. |
I don't know i find a fold with KQ either. AA/AK versus this guy i really don't know, i probably find a fold.
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noble007
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I wasn't going to comment, cuz hand it's toooo hard.
Pre-flop in this spot for 100bb a cold call of a 3bet is often AA. (button opening light hence sb 3bet light and a 4bet would just elicit folds.) But playing so deep he would 4bet here most of the time of course. (also with AK)
You think he might be calling just to have position on you post flop with deep stacks which may be true but in this spot I think it's unlikely, his cold call of 3bet will often get the button to come along because of pot odds
so he will be playing oop vs him which would negate most of the adv vs you.
So I doubt there are any AQ/AJ etc type hands in his range.
Im fairly sure it would be low-med pairs or low-med sc's which can
hit the flop hard & stack your hopefully good/premium hand.
As it turned out he ended up with pos on you & on such a dry board he could be raising flop with a really wide range incl. alot of bluffs, 45s makes alot of sense here as a semi-bluff (8 outs). some marginal aces also fold here because its often a set here if not a better ace.
But once you call flop he has to put you on something like a big ace/set most of the time & even if he's an aggressive lag, I just think its very unlikely he would bluff in this spot on a blank turn, ie. representing a set.
(The turn also completes the only semi-bluff flop draw 45s)
So I fold even if his bet size is a bit large given stack size, it could also be that he puts you on a big ace that isn't folding turn and wants to make sure you're definitely pot-committed on any river. (& maybe even himself if board pairs & he has 45)
(The only hand I haven't mentioned is AK which isn't too likely pre & doesnt make too much sense on turn for me... a)He has to be scared of set & might consider pot control b) He's betting slightly too much to get value out of weaker ace after flop raise.
& as my conclusion was to fold anyway, if he does have AK here sometimes
it just leads me more in the direction of folding.)
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Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by noble007
I wasn't going to comment, cuz hand it's toooo hard.
Pre-flop in this spot for 100bb a cold call of a 3bet is often AA. (button opening light hence sb 3bet light and a 4bet would just elicit folds.) But playing so deep he would 4bet here most of the time of course. (also with AK)
You think he might be calling just to have position on you post flop with deep stacks which may be true but in this spot I think it's unlikely, his cold call of 3bet will often get the button to come along because of pot odds
so he will be playing oop vs him which would negate most of the adv vs you.
So I doubt there are any AQ/AJ etc type hands in his range.
Im fairly sure it would be low-med pairs or low-med sc's which can
hit the flop hard & stack your hopefully good/premium hand.
As it turned out he ended up with pos on you & on such a dry board he could be raising flop with a really wide range incl. alot of bluffs, 45s makes alot of sense here as a semi-bluff (8 outs). some marginal aces also fold here because its often a set here if not a better ace.
But once you call flop he has to put you on something like a big ace/set most of the time & even if he's an aggressive lag, I just think its very unlikely he would bluff in this spot on a blank turn, ie. representing a set.
(The turn also completes the only semi-bluff flop draw 45s)
So I fold even if his bet size is a bit large given stack size, it could also be that he puts you on a big ace that isn't folding turn and wants to make sure you're definitely pot-committed on any river. (& maybe even himself if board pairs & he has 45)
(The only hand I haven't mentioned is AK which isn't too likely pre & doesnt make too much sense on turn for me... a)He has to be scared of set & might consider pot control b) He's betting slightly too much to get value out of weaker ace after flop raise.
& as my conclusion was to fold anyway, if he does have AK here sometimes
it just leads me more in the direction of folding.)
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Really solid analysis noble, don't be afraid to comment
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nutsinho
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suggesting that he rarely has AK is silly. its easily his most likely holding--stacking off with it pre for 250bb is really bad even BvB, but he'd have to be much deeper to consider slowing down postflop on this board with it given his image.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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noble007
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Yes thats true nutsinho - given his image you're right.
(I think I came to that conclusion because I would probably 4bet it pre & thought a 23/20 would to in this spot, but yeah I'm not so clued up on deep-stack poker.)
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Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
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IowaSkinsFan
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Quote:
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suggesting that he rarely has AK is silly. its easily his most likely holding--stacking off with it pre for 250bb is really bad even BvB, but he'd have to be much deeper to consider slowing down postflop on this board with it given his image.
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I think he doesn't have AK a lot IMO, I should've mentioned this but he really didn't take long before calling preflop is one thing which likely means he doesn't have it. I don't think playing for stacks with AK is that bad given both players.
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Fnord
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Against most players I would just check/fold the flop and throw KK/QQ a bone. If his range is wider AND you feel you must bet this flop, it doesn't look like such a bad spot to look him up.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.226% 53.96% 00.27% 9615 48.00 { AhQh }
Hand 1: 45.774% 45.51% 00.27% 8109 48.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
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mcatdog
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I think he doesn't have AK a lot IMO, I should've mentioned this but he really didn't take long before calling preflop is one thing which likely means he doesn't have it.
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Seems like an easy call-down then. I know Max said Marshall is bad but is he really bad enough to cold-call preflop with a small pair? That's just horrible since there'd be $120 in the pot so if the button has anything good he's just going to shove.
With that being said, IF you don't think AK is in his range then you're losing to exactly one combo and you're beating a lot of JJ-KK that decided to turn themselves into a bluff. I won't argue with your read but I'm a little skeptical of him not being able to having AK though, it just makes so much sense for him and it's actually a stronger hand on this board than JJ was in the other hand (because of your range). And if AK is in his range then calling is terrible.
Great hand to post BTW.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I think he doesn't have AK a lot IMO, I should've mentioned this but he really didn't take long before calling preflop is one thing which likely means he doesn't have it.
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I know Max said Marshall is bad but is he really bad enough to cold-call preflop with a small pair? |
Well it's not really bad but yeah this guy is probably calling pre with any pair.
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nutsinho
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I dont think he's a spectacular player or anything but he's only as bad as a decently long term 8ptbb winner at 2/4 can be.
and yeah that timing tell does seem pretty relevant for discounting AK. He might instinctively snapcall AA though but obviously we're not overly worried about that.
I'd like to hear more about this argument for c/f flop, since this seems wayyy out in left field even absent of any tells.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Against most players I would just check/fold the flop and throw KK/QQ a bone. If his range is wider AND you feel you must bet this flop, it doesn't such as a spot to look him up.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.226% 53.96% 00.27% 9615 48.00 { AhQh }
Hand 1: 45.774% 45.51% 00.27% 8109 48.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
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Yeah Fnord this player is much different than you'd expect. Versus tighter players i dont hate c/f either. I feel like his range pre is something like 54s-T9s, 22-QQ, AQ/AK/KQ
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
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it seems to me like his range is going to be either a set or a bluff and maybe a rare AK. then by his bet sizing and the fact that he is aggro and will bluff a lot i think his range is probably more weighted towards bluffs.
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gabe
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if we only play back with AK or AA here we are so exploitable
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
if we only play back with AK or AA here we are so exploitable
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If this is true, and we assume that villain isn't getting carried away with A8 or something here. Then we should potentially be playing a lot of aces (A9-AQ) the same here?
I'm assuming that AT pretty much = AQ in this spot.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Yeah results are I shoved and he thought for 5 seconds and folded. His roommate (JohnnyCosmo) told Max that Marshall had 99 and Cosmo said he thought I played it well. (Btw Cosmo told Max this after I posted the hand).
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
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high five mcat
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
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oh and cool hand ISF
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
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i was playing with marshall28 at 100Nl last night. think he went busto
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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gabe
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hes a bad TAG with ego problems so good chance he is close to busto
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mcatdog
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
high five mcat
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ty but when you're a tourney donk who never ever folds then you don't deserve too much credit for telling people to call as per usual
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Jager
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
hes a bad TAG with ego problems so good chance he is close to busto
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How is he going to pay for that new porsche carrera he bought recently??
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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nutsinho
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pretty clear he was making a vid
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
hes a bad TAG with ego problems so good chance he is close to busto
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How is he going to pay for that new porsche carrera he bought recently?? |
He nearly cashed out his entire roll to finance that porsche so who knows.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
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wtf money management ftw
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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BankItDrew
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I think marshall is bluff and is trying to get you to fold a pp.
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Fnord
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He's 8-tabling .5/1 6-max right now.
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BankItDrew
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cool
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bjsaust
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Can you play this kind of hand without rock solid reads like this? I mean, could you make a read of 'highly unlikely to have AK' against someone who you dont know their playstyle well?
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Just playing to improve.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Can you play this kind of hand without rock solid reads like this? I mean, could you make a read of 'highly unlikely to have AK' against someone who you dont know their playstyle well?
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I mean versus someone i dont know i fold possibly on the flop but likely on the turn.
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Marshall28
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Full House
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We had played quite a few pretty large sized pots deep before this one and you were pounding on me, so I felt like this board seemed like a really good one to make a move on you. Obv the flop looks really good to make a bluff raise because there are no draws, you have to basically put me on a bluff or a set (and the 10% of times im cold calling AK). You really got me frustrated after this hand because your hand is face up and I played my hand identical to how I would play 77. Obv I didn't know how much weight you would give to the possibility of my running a big bluff 300bb deep, I really just expected you to think like any other player here and figure villains are scared to make plays deepstacked, therefore I must have a hand. Anyways, I thought you were folding AK/AQ like 100% of the time to my turn bet and I really lost it after you jammed on me here.
I think you played the hand really well if you weight my range to bluffs a high percentage of the time.
And I def give you respect, you are one of the few who have really given me trouble at 400.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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marshall hu?
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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gabe ... dunno why you trash talking .. .theres lots of speculation about me on this thread, pretty much all of it is addressed in my blog ... the money i withdrew to buy the porsche was less than half my BR, and I was playing over 100buyins rolled lol. then i went on a downswing, which is why you see me at .5/1 lately. oh well, at least i have the discipline to do what i have to do to get back to the point i was at.
sorry, no HU, i don't know you, but you'd probly own me anyways.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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oh, and the JJ hand ... its kind of a sick spot cuz of how deep we were .... If I raise you and get re-raised, you are only doing so w/ a larger set, AT or 9T. I can't know which it is, so if I call to draw to boat, it's bad reverse implied odds situation, you slow down if you have straight, and you nail me if you have bigger set. Besides, w/ my image there's no way you put me on a hand of that strength and will be valuing much weaker for three streets IMO, I mean, unless you understand that I realize how relatively weak bottom set is on that board while playing that deep.
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