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griffey24
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04-01-2009, 01:55 PM
Post subject: 2/4 - cold 4-bet...oops got called.. now what?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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-I haven't been getting too out of line on this table, and noticed this villain had been 3betting somewhat loose on the button.
-villain running around 20/16 with a 3bet of 8 and probably a higher 3bet on the button (though not a large sample. Haven't played with too many ppl on stars yet, first couple weeks)
-CO in this hand is a multi-tabling reg on stars, who runs about 17/15 but folds a lot of 3bets, especially OOP
-villain and I have no relevant history other than I 3bet his button open a few times and he folded once and folded on an A high flop another time
-Based on feel/timing of flop call I felt like I should shut down, which was the plan until the river. I feel like shove, c/c or c/f are all reasonable here?
$2/$4 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($411.60)
UTG+1 ($559.70)
CO ($394.00)
BTN ($475.00)
Hero (SB) ($597.70)
BB ($228.15)
Pre-flop: ($6, 6 players) Hero is SB  
2 folds, CO raises to $12, BTN raises to $39, Hero raises to $95, 1 fold, CO folds, BTN calls $56
Flop:    ($206, 2 players)
Hero bets $85, BTN calls $85
Turn:  ($356, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks
River:  ($356, 2 players)
Hero with $300ish behind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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damn yeah I probably just c/f
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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i think 8% is where i would draw the line pretty much for cold 4-betting, unless they just folded a ton or w/e. if he folds to 3-bets a ton than i would think he's probably calling with a pretty tight range to a 4-bet. we can be pretty sure hes calling with an ace right? he's folding everything worse imo. AQ/AJ are less likely as we have blockers, and AK presumably would've jammed. i just could never bring myself to c/f because we're taking such a weak line and he would never put us on QJ, so i would feel like im just being bluffed a ton. i think i would just shove.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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I think preflop is fine, this guy's btn 3 betting range is fairly wide and squeezing here with qj is probably going to be profitable. On the river I just shove.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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bet 50 on flop, 150 on turn into pot of 300, shove river obv.
They fold the turn like 90% of the time anyways since they almost always have like 88-TT when they do this.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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you're not getting called by worse, so c/f imo
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
you're not getting called by worse, so c/f imo
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nit
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Seriously give me a range of hands he calls that are worse than our 2pr here?
c/f seems good unfortunately, I wonder if he thin vb's AK though, I doubt he calls a shove with it, plus i think we can discount it a bunch cause it would felt pre the majority of the time.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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riv seems pretty shovealicious to me, gg if he has AJ
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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He never has AK... he folds mid PP to a shove... what else is left? ATs, A9s? Is he dumb enough to call a shove with those...
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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definitely bet the river, you dont have to shove or bet/call, checkfolding is terribad
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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i think betting 85$ and folding to a poosh gets us owned so much by good regs, and i also think shove is bad cuz it never gets called by worse
i still prefer c/f, haaaaate shove, but dont mind 85$ bet vs some villains
edit: okay i guess we can get owned as often if villain turns his pair into a bluff here or something so c/f aitn that hot because of that... so im likin 85$ now... still hate shove
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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some ppl are stations
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Luke999
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: England
Posts: 238
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I'd bet that like 1 million%.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
some ppl are stations
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I don't disagree with this. I guess this comes down to the possible "4-bet flatting range" that we can assign to a relatively unknown. Obviously if he has hands like A8s or stuff, a bet here is much more straight forward.
If he only has AJ+ here, and shoves KK/AK pre... well... it's easy to see we're value towning ourselves...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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TheLeakyFaucet
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 54
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
i think betting 85$ and folding to a poosh gets us owned so much by good regs, and i also think shove is bad cuz it never gets called by worse
i still prefer c/f, haaaaate shove, but dont mind 85$ bet vs some villains
edit: okay i guess we can get owned as often if villain turns his pair into a bluff here or something so c/f aitn that hot because of that... so im likin 85$ now... still hate shove
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I think bet small/fold is probably the best line because it seems insane for a reg to bluff here
There is def value in a bet so i think c/f is not an option at all
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I think value betting smallish against a weird suited ace that didn't make two pair is good. I think any better hand other than A-J can be almost ruled out based on the action. Your line looks pretty strong, but whatever, hopefully he makes a bad call.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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i think he has AA like always
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alexos
i think he has AA like always
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alex you are a great player but, srsly, hahahahahaha
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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 hahah if you don't believe me ask Griffey !!!!
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Yaaah he had AA here...
buttt to say he has AA here always means that AA is the only pair hand he's ever 3betting pre and then cold calling my smallish 4bet IP.
If he flats ANY other pair pre there ever (TT-KK), he's also going to end up flatting my smallll cbet on the A high board at least once. So most of the time his range for getting to the river like this should still have all those hands.. as well as any Axss he might peel pre.
My reasoning for shutting down after flop (aside from hitting a piece) was more of a feel/timing thing. Though otherwise its probably an ok spot to double on a brick I think...esp after my flop sizing.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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AA is def a possibility and is more likely than any other hand that beats you imo (AJ is close 2nd not because he's very likely to play it this way but because of combos. nothing else seems to make much sense) . It's still a clear value bet against anyone who's got some game in them.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Honestly i dont why everyone loves 4-bet bluffing this spot, people are paying off QQ-AA here.
And you're oop.
And you don't have any real reads to justify it.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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you guys reckon villain ever has 66-1010 here?
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TheLeakyFaucet
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 54
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
you guys reckon villain ever has 66-1010 here?
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TT sometimes not v often I dont think and 66-99 very rarely/almost never
I fail to see why thats important though? I doubt he turns them into a bluff if chkd to on the river if he even has them
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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id c/f the flop?
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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no way I think we have to get the flop. He's way more likely to have TT/JJ than AK and he'll fold them a lot anyway I think.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I think he's more likely to have AQ than any of those.
But I don't think he's folding JJ/TT to one bet always.
If we had KQ a 4,2,5, or 3 id bet.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Yeah you have fair points there.
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