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2/4 & 3/6 - Three river spots

  
 
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zook
Old 01-14-2009, 04:45 AM     Post subject: 2/4 & 3/6 - Three river spots #1 (permalink)  
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My first session in a month, shaking off the rust.

1. Villain is running 17/14/3.2 over 500 hands, only history is that I 4bet bluffed him from button a few orbits earlier and folded to his shove.

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saw flop

Button ($513)
Hero (SB) ($824.40)
BB ($1242.60)
UTG ($474.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9, 10
2 folds, Hero raises to $14, BB calls $10

Flop: ($28) J, Q, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $22, BB calls $22

Turn: ($72) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $60, BB calls $60

River: ($192) 5 (2 players)
Hero...

2. Villain's running 26/19/1.9 over 1.3k hands, he's a weird, trappy, probably losing player. Earlier in the session he raised 85s utg, I flatted AQo from the bb, he checked behind a fd on an A-high flop, I c/c'ed the Q flush turn and a blank river to his slightly overpot bets.

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saw flop

UTG ($567.75)
MP ($791)
Hero (CO) ($600)
Button ($658.50)
SB ($225)
BB ($647.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7, A
2 folds, Hero raises to $21, Button calls $21, 2 folds

Flop: ($51) 8, J, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $42, Button calls $42

Turn: ($135) A (2 players)
Hero bets $111, Button calls $111

River: ($357) 7 (2 players)
Hero...

3. Villain is running 32/20/1.9 over 200 hands and seems bad. A few orbits earlier he complete/rr'ed the sb in a bvb with Q8s and we checked down a Axx two-tone Qx board, I had JJ.

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saw flop

Hero (BB) ($753)
UTG ($291)
MP ($422)
Button ($925)
SB ($1322.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, A
3 folds, SB calls $2, Hero raises to $14, SB calls $10

Flop: ($28) A, 7, 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $24, SB calls $24

Turn: ($76) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $60, SB calls $60

River: ($196) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero...
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Alexos
Old 01-14-2009, 04:59 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 I think all three are pretty standard bets, sooo...

1- medium size bet
2- big bet
3- smaller bet
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nutsinho
Old 01-14-2009, 05:41 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
I think all three are pretty standard bets, sooo...

1- medium size bet
2- big bet
3- smaller bet
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Irisheyes
Old 01-14-2009, 05:44 AM #4 (permalink)  
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1) b/f
2) I like shove or bet medium size. I think he's bluffcatching with a J a lot so I don't like standard big value bet.
3) small bet
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griffey24
Old 01-14-2009, 12:35 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Yah definitely gotta bet all 3.

hand 1 - I suppose this is a bet/fold given how deep we are, but I can't imagine him having a boat here ever given flop/turn play. I like 130ish here

Hand 2 - 300ish, especially if its possible this villain has Axxclubs

Hand 3 - Yah I like half pot here, 100ish

Hand 2 and 3 are def b/f's, but I'm not entirely convinced on 1.
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zook
Old 01-14-2009, 02:08 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Ok, these are boring, sorry. Clearly my choosing hands to post skills need work after the month layoff.

Results:
1. I bet $160, villain calls with Q8s.
2. I shove for ~$430, villain folds.
3. I bet $111, villain flat calls with 77 LOL.
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Renton
Old 01-14-2009, 05:22 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 1. i don't know whats best, so i guess i'd just bet 136 or something. Cant really see him having a boat, so i'd call a raise, but i'd honestly expect him to raise nearly never so it would still be a tough spot

2. something irks me about your turn betsize, but i can't justify why so i won't try to. river i can only see betting, question is what amount and whether to call the shove. I would probably bet like 85 and call the shove vs this player.

3. i would bet fold for half pot



p.s. i now know what was bugging me about hte turn bet in hand two, and i think we've talked about this before. You seem to choose betsizes on flop and turn (and the 3.5x preflop causes this too) that causes awkward potsize conditions on the river.
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zook
Old 01-15-2009, 03:27 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
p.s. i now know what was bugging me about hte turn bet in hand two, and i think we've talked about this before. You seem to choose betsizes on flop and turn (and the 3.5x preflop causes this too) that causes awkward potsize conditions on the river.
I don't find having 1.2x pot on the river that awkward, but what's your solution? $125ish on the turn?
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Renton
Old 01-15-2009, 04:11 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 well the way i play i'd have bet smaller on every street, i suppose in your case you coudl have at least bet smaller on turn.
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zook
Old 01-15-2009, 04:21 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
well the way i play i'd have bet smaller on every street, i suppose in your case you coudl have at least bet smaller on turn.
how do you ever win stacks?
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Alexos
Old 01-15-2009, 04:30 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
well the way i play i'd have bet smaller on every street, i suppose in your case you coudl have at least bet smaller on turn.
stack to pot ratio obsession?

id say you're losing money because of it
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Irisheyes
Old 01-15-2009, 06:17 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Alesos, you mind just mentioning why you say medium bet on 1 and big bet on 2? Not sure if I understand the reasoning.

I'm guessing it's medium on 1 because we dont want him to fold a one pair hand but I can't figure out why just bet standard big on 2 unless you're assigning more Ax to his range than I am? Is his range not mostly Jx and missed draws?
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 01-15-2009, 11:29 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 bet like 95 on the river in hand 1
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Renton
Old 01-15-2009, 11:47 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
well the way i play i'd have bet smaller on every street, i suppose in your case you coudl have at least bet smaller on turn.
how do you ever win stacks?
probably win less stacks than you do. But im probably given a lot more +ev options than you are on early streets, such as 4b bluffing pre, double barreling, triple barreling, thinly vbing, and my cbets probably show a greater profit than yours.

i don't know if it evens out.
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Alexos
Old 01-15-2009, 03:24 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
well the way i play i'd have bet smaller on every street, i suppose in your case you coudl have at least bet smaller on turn.
how do you ever win stacks?
probably win less stacks than you do. But im probably given a lot more +ev options than you are on early streets, such as 4b bluffing pre, double barreling, triple barreling, thinly vbing, and my cbets probably show a greater profit than yours.

i don't know if it evens out.
how can you say that, you have no idea how i play...

I'm just saying, on a drawy board like hand 2, how can you justify betting smaller on each street? And I was wondering if it has anything to do with s/p ratio, but you still havnt answered that. As in, if your stack was $500 eff, would you still bet smaller on each street?

Betting big here on a drawy board allows us to shove river, which is a slight overbet, when all draws have missed, and villain is super likely to make a hero call.
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Alexos
Old 01-15-2009, 03:32 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Alesos, you mind just mentioning why you say medium bet on 1 and big bet on 2? Not sure if I understand the reasoning.

I'm guessing it's medium on 1 because we dont want him to fold a one pair hand but I can't figure out why just bet standard big on 2 unless you're assigning more Ax to his range than I am? Is his range not mostly Jx and missed draws?

my reasoning is that our ranges have more draws in hand 2 than in hand 1. Our range in 1 has a lot less air then in 2, so i bet somewhat smaller since villain can't put me on a lot of missed draws. In 2, everything misses, i can rep a bunch of missed draws that villain can hero call me with, so i bet bigger. Yea i think he has alot of Ax and Jx even that might call, idk i just tend to overbet in these spots and hope they get curious. I guess you could also 1/3 pot and hope they spazz out or something but i don't do that as often.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 01-15-2009, 04:45 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
I think all three are pretty standard bets, sooo...

1- medium size bet
2- big bet
3- smaller bet
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Renton
Old 01-15-2009, 05:45 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
how can you say that, you have no idea how i play...
i was responding to zook?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
I'm just saying, on a drawy board like hand 2, how can you justify betting smaller on each street? And I was wondering if it has anything to do with s/p ratio, but you still havnt answered that. As in, if your stack was $500 eff, would you still bet smaller on each street?

Betting big here on a drawy board allows us to shove river, which is a slight overbet, when all draws have missed, and villain is super likely to make a hero call.
It has vaguely to do with stack/pot ratio, but additionally I feel that a slightly smaller bet would be better on the flop for a couple of reasons:

- theres higher likelihood of us getting lightly raised with a 36 bet than a 42 imo, enhancing the profitability of our 3-bet

- theres higher likelihood of us getting lightly called, which is good since we're following like 80% of turns, enhancing the profitability of the second barrel

- the s/p ratio is such on the flop that we can't get all in in 3-bets without overbetting


As for the turn, I'd go with a slightly smaller bet (like 95) because I think thats a more successful bet with some of the other hands in my range that im betting (such as Jx or air). Also I believe that your river overbet shove with tpwk when the draws brick is a little ambitious.

Yes though, having 500 eff would be an added incentive to bet larger. Don't forget I'm talking about 1-3bb differences in the betsizes i'd have chosen and zook's. I don't play radically different.
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Alexos
Old 01-15-2009, 05:54 PM #19 (permalink)  
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 fair enough!

Btw we have two pair...
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Renton
Old 01-15-2009, 06:21 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 well, you were saying you'd plan to overbet shove a blank river, right? as in we only have one pair on turn, so on most blanks we'd just have one pair.
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