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2/4 & 3/6 - non standard play leads to confuzaments

  
 
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griffey24
Old 08-25-2009, 11:33 PM     Post subject: 2/4 & 3/6 - non standard play leads to confuzaments #1 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1
-villain is good reg gogol's on stars
-From previous sessions he views me as a bluffy player, and somewhat of a spazz
-hasn't had any relevant hand with me this session
-turn check back is non standard for sure


$2/$4 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($400.00)
UTG+1 ($448.45)
Hero (CO) ($409.00)
BTN ($500.70)
SB ($434.00)
BB ($787.80)

Pre-flop: ($6, 6 players) Hero is CO
UTG raises to $12, 1 fold, Hero calls $12, 2 folds, BB calls $8

Flop: ($38, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $28, BB calls $28, UTG folds

Turn: ($94, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($94, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $70, BB raises to $747.80, Hero to call 299??


Hand 2
-villain in this hand is decent reg, who opens a ton in LP
-I think he views me as a tight 3bettor in combination with the fact that he folds to a ton of 3bets, so in general he folds to most of my 3bets from previous sessions
-this is the first button open of the session, so I figure there's a very high probability that he will fold to my 3bet so I decide to flat
- I don't recall any hand in the past of significance where I have donk lead into him, so I'm not entirely sure if he will spazz on it.
-Facing his flop raise, what is standard?

$3/$6 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($600.00)
UTG+1 ($801.00)
CO ($1461.90)
BTN ($609.00)
Hero (SB) ($612.00)
BB ($609.00)

Pre-flop: ($9, 6 players) Hero is SB
3 folds, BTN raises to $18, Hero calls $15, 1 fold

Flop: ($42, 2 players)
Hero bets $30, BTN raises to $90, Hero calls $60

Turn: ($222, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($222, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $174, Hero to call?
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ATOTHEC101
Old 08-26-2009, 12:10 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Ok, well in hand 1 I call river, he slow played a flopped set fairly rarely on this flop and his line just stinks of weak sd value that realises its getting v bet by a better hand and is now turning it's hand into a bluff. If he's decent he should also realise by checking turn then betting river your range isn't especially strong and won't be able to withstand a river c/r often, only nut hand you could have is 1010. Even if you call and he did slow play a big hand and went for a c/r on a blank riv rather than leading it's a helpful note for the future.


hand 2: Flatting is probs fine pre given reads, flop lead seems fine as I dislike c/cing on this texture, when he checks back turn then v bets this blank riv for a decent amount I feel his range is limited to bluffs/ and far more frequently 1 pair hands that are now v betting river hoping to get looked up by 8x and less by looking somewhat bluffy. The debate is now between whether to call or c/r all in for value, and I think the latter is clearly the best option.
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Irisheyes
Old 08-26-2009, 12:23 AM #3 (permalink)  
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In hand 1 you're range can have a ton of air in it on the flop and the turn check back looks weak so he could definitely feel that your range is very weak on the river. Also his flop call on such a wet board doesn't reek of strength so he can get to the river pretty weak and decide to c/r bluff. I think it looks like an ok spot for him to c/r something like 56 or 66 as well as missed draws from his POV. So I would call.

Out of interest, do you guys ever call the flop with 55 in villains spot? It just occurred to me how strong a c/r looks with the PFR to act after him.

I really hate the donk lead on this flop when you don't have a really sick read on how he's going to play back, you just give him a really good opportunity to balance his range optimally in a big pot in position. I prefer c/c I guess given that I'm not all that delighted with getting it in if we go for a check/raise. One advantage of checking to him on this flop is that he tips the strength of his hand a lot and checks back with hands we can VB heavily and we have the BDFD so there's not quite as many tough turn cards.

On the river I think it's possible for him to VB pretty light. He can easily VB 2 pair but I don't think he can ever have that with this flop/turn action. So he can VB worse here and bluff some since loads of draws missed and we don't look strong so I call the river.

Is anybody donking this turn if they c/c the flop?
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noble007
Old 08-26-2009, 01:10 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: I call

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
his line just stinks of weak sd value that realises its getting v bet by a better hand and is now turning it's hand into a bluff... If he's decent he should also realise by checking turn then betting river your range isn't especially strong and won't be able to withstand a river c/r often
Hand 2:

The texture seems like the worst 4 slowplayed aces, I would check call 2 streets and fold the river. (Probably the worst option but w/e)

As played I think the rivers a call as he's unlikely to check behind 2pr's or sets on that turn so unless the three helped him the amount of hands in his range better than AA is very small.
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noble007
Old 08-26-2009, 01:41 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Out of interest, do you guys ever call the flop with 55 in villains spot? It just occurred to me how strong a c/r looks with the PFR to act after him.
Nah the board is too draw heavy for me. But I CR ATC alot in BB's spot. When the PFR checks on this texture he is often giving up so an aggressive player in position stabs here all day (Like Griffey did) So you can CR ATC in BB's spot and it looks pretty strong.
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Irisheyes
Old 08-26-2009, 01:49 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Yes I agree with that, something I do a lot.
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mixchange
Old 08-26-2009, 02:36 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noble007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Out of interest, do you guys ever call the flop with 55 in villains spot? It just occurred to me how strong a c/r looks with the PFR to act after him.
Nah the board is too draw heavy for me. But I CR ATC alot in BB's spot. When the PFR checks on this texture he is often giving up so an aggressive player in position stabs here all day (Like Griffey did) So you can CR ATC in BB's spot and it looks pretty strong.

I think this is a really good point noble! The only problem I have is that this board seems pretty action heavy, and I can see an aggressive player calling IP to see what you do on turn. Maybe I'm just being nitty?
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ATOTHEC101
Old 08-26-2009, 02:45 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Why is everyone simply saying to call the river in hand 2, we have the best hand 95% of the time and we'll get looked up by worse frequently, not shoving is losing tons of value.
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griffey24
Old 08-26-2009, 03:10 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
Why is everyone simply saying to call the river in hand 2, we have the best hand 95% of the time and we'll get looked up by worse frequently, not shoving is losing tons of value.
What hands do you think are raising this flop, checking back this turn and then b/calling a river c/bomb?

It's possible he plays QQ,KK like that. I'm not really sure what else though.
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Luke999
Old 08-26-2009, 11:11 AM #10 (permalink)  
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I fold hand 1 rather fast.

Hand 2, is interesting because surely he bets turn with a big draw like 8h9h? He obviously rarely puts us on an overpair, but there are a ton of 2 pair/sets in his range. I think it's close between a call and a fold, i think we beat missed flush draws and pair + str8 draws but his value range has us beat almost always, unless he is capable of valuebetting pretty thin here.
It's also important to know how he reacts to leads, if he raises them a ton as he considers them weak, with you checking to him twice i'd snap
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ATOTHEC101
Old 08-26-2009, 11:32 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
Why is everyone simply saying to call the river in hand 2, we have the best hand 95% of the time and we'll get looked up by worse frequently, not shoving is losing tons of value.
What hands do you think are raising this flop, checking back this turn and then b/calling a river c/bomb?

It's possible he plays QQ,KK like that. I'm not really sure what else though.

Admittedly his line is super weird, and it's hard to put him on a value range that plays the hand this way. I'm more going on the fact he should never be checking behind this turn with a hand that beats us, and considering the 3d is the biggest blank in the deck we should still have the best hand. I feel he can def play 99/1010/qq/kk and jx hearts this way as well as a decent amount of bluffs.
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Da GOAT
Old 08-26-2009, 12:23 PM #12 (permalink)  
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snap hand 1? think u miss a ton of value on turn since your range is super wide.

in hand 2 - wot do u think he knows about your SB range??
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 08-26-2009, 06:44 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: his hand doesn't make sense and he's capable of bluffing this prob so call. I bet the turn though, Unless you're trying to induce this... Or you know he's going to fold because of some timing and reads.

Hand 2: I like the way you played the hand so far, although when someone has a raising range so wide otb you should probably rr AA anyway. If the BB is somewhat of a squeezer though its fine.

As for the hand, I understand the reason why one would think raise, i would assume you're ahead a good amount and that's why its definitely a call. The thing is e could have a bad two pair or even 33, maybe t9hh? And i really doubt most players will call them so thats why i wouldnt raise (and as you said earlier, he range seems to only contain a small number of hands). Because of this id much rather raise as a bluff
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 08-26-2009, 06:54 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: If he didnt flat an UTG range from the BB i'd probably call but preflop skews his range too much towards sets.

Hand 2: I'd just go ahead and shove river because you have missed draws in your range and you seem to be ahead a large amount of the time. Albeit I have a hard time putting him on a hand, but it would be bizarre for him to check the turn with anything that beats AA.
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