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jimmy44
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05-08-2008, 12:04 PM
Post subject: 100NL: SB vs BB: overpair and 150 deep
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Place where I can spew
Posts: 1,391
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villain was 23/20/4 (200 hands)
I decided to trap with KK here.
I believe that villain will call with dominated hands here such as TT/QQ and maybe 99 as I'm representing a FD.
Any comments? We could of course call flop as we have the K of spades we're not too worry on a third spade, but what would be our plan on turn? bet a non spade turn & a spade turn aswell? or c/c?
Seat 1: BB ($162.70 in chips)
Seat 7: Hero [ KD,KS ] ($155.35 in chips)
Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1.00
3 players
Converter
Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is SB with K  K 
BU folds, Hero raises to $3.5, BB raises to $12, Hero calls.
Flop: 5 2 7 ($24.25, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $20, Hero raises all-in $142.35, BB calls.
Turn: 8  ($308.95, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $308.95)
River: 9  ($308.95, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $308.95)
Results:
Final pot: $308.95
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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fine imo
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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If you want to call preflop then definately raise flop.
But you are too deep for a push imo.
I 4-bet more often than not and will throw in some 4-bet bluffs if you feel it get's too much respect.
I call sometimes, but rarely oop.
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jimmy44
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Place where I can spew
Posts: 1,391
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Something I missed was that I was being pretty aggro if folded to me from SB. Concerning the push, I felt that such a push would be called by a lot of hands.
That said, maybe a 4bet was better due to the first sentence I mentioned ... and indeed we are OOP.
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c-luvin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 159
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nothing wrong with flatting pre, i like a c/r flop but a shove looks too strong, just make it like 75 and call a shove/shove any turn. you could even make it a little less because the only hands that are calling you anyways (that you beat) are smaller pairs and they have 2 outs or a flush draw which is already commited to the pot if it calls any raise at all.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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I don't hate a push at all. It reps draws and small overpairs like 88 and 99, and therefore gets called pretty often by TT+... especially if you have an aggressive table image. It's an overbet by normal standards but in this situation I think he gets called quite often by worse hands.
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c-luvin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 159
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people do this with small overpairs?
90% of the time i see the call 3 bet and c/bomb flop it is AA/KK or a flopped set.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,529
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I like overshoves when you've been aggro recently and your opponents aren't multi-tabling to the point where they're likely to have have noticed your aggression (or you've been aggressive recently to them directly).
Many villains love to talk themselves into a hero call when you've been bullying around the table prior to the hand, and you come over with an overshove...
nh
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jimmy44
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Place where I can spew
Posts: 1,391
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
I like overshoves when you've been aggro recently and your opponents aren't multi-tabling to the point where they're likely to have have noticed your aggression (or you've been aggressive recently to them directly).
Many villains love to talk themselves into a hero call when you've been bullying around the table prior to the hand, and you come over with an overshove...
nh
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That's exactly the reason I did it! 
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by c-luvin
people do this with small overpairs?
90% of the time i see the call 3 bet and c/bomb flop it is AA/KK or a flopped set.
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On this board could easily be two big spades (AK, AQ, KQ, AJ) - or 8s 9s/6s 8s/3s 4s - though only a LAgg would make the preflop call with the latter two hands, so maybe we can discount those as somewhat improbable. But bear in mind the situation - they are 3-handed and hero says he's been aggressive on the SB when the button folds. Ergo, BB may 3-bet a lot lighter (and certainly any pair TT+); ergo, he may believe that hero's preflop call is just stubbornness with a so-so hand, or an attempt to blow him out of the pot post-flop. There's a lot going on here other than just a typical raise/3-bet-then check/bomb flop scenario. If this was a full table, not a blind war, and between two typical regs with no history, I'd agree with you that hero's line shows a lot more strength. But in this situation I think draws and smaller overpairs make up a beefy chunk of hero's range, and if it was me playing it, I'd probably talk myself into a call with TT or better. And I don't even like making hero calls.
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c-luvin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 159
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i keep typing paragraphs but i think what im trying to say is
we should make a smaller raise and let him hang himself with a pp or big spades rather than trying to make him make a hero call because those are less likely at 100nl than someone stacking off to a std raise.
dale is definately see what your saying with the whole 3 handed thing and youve made me 50/50 for shove or raise, but i still think theres something to be said for a small raise here
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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To me the question is not if he's less likely to call a push (I assume he is, even though he's likely to be very suspicious - hell, sometimes he'll just have overs and he's obviously not calling with that). Rather, it's which move plays out to make the most in the long run. That's where you have to start making guesses about how often he calls a push and how often he calls or raises a smaller CR; and also how often he stacks off on later streets, if we make a smaller raise on the flop and he just calls it. It's a complicated equation. You can go Sklansky on it and start assigning numbers pulled out of the ether (and really, there's no other way to come to a conclusion). I'll just say that my gut instinct is that both are similarly profitable, and he calls the push enough (and folds to a smaller raise enough) that it may be a wash. If your table image is super aggro, I'd lean toward pushing; if your table image is more standard, I'd lean toward a regular raise.
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