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100NL - KK vs unknown

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12-24-2008, 12:37 AM Post subject: 100NL - KK vs unknown

#1 (permalink)

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This hand sucked a lot. Villain is a total unknown, it's his 7th hand and this is the first time he's VP$IP.

On the flop I could 3bet which is the right play against his draws/AJ/QQ but the worst against his sets/AA/air.

On the turn I probably should have raised and got it in... in the moment I guess I was thinking I'd let him bluff his chips off on the river.

Then when the river comes an ace I'm pissed because it improves his NFDs and AJ and some of his air to a winning hand.

So basically every street except preflop was hard =[ halp!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($116.85)
CO ($103.45)
Hero (Button) ($115.30)
SB ($171.55)
BB ($98.50)
UTG ($16.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K

, K

3 folds, Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, BB calls $2

Flop: ($6.50) 3

, J

, 6

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4, BB raises to $12, Hero calls $8

Turn: ($30.50) 4

(2 players)
BB bets $20, Hero calls $20

River: ($70.50) A

(2 players)
BB bets $63.50 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $70.50 | Rake: $3

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Stacks

12-24-2008, 03:10 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,608

I routinely run into similar situations here, and never know how to play it either. And you put it really well when you said by 3betting the flop while we are playing correctly against his weaker 1 pair hands, and mainly his draws, we are making a mistake against his sets/air.

It seems I always play the flop in a similar manner. The turn I'm never sure either. I feel there is merit in felting the turn, but I'm unsure whether it's the most +ev play.

Would be really nice to have some better players chime in here with some analysis, and thoughts on what kind of factors we should consider, and what questions we should be asking ourself in similiar situations to help sway our decisions.

nutsinho

12-24-2008, 03:24 AM

#3 (permalink)

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i would 3bet the flop vs an unknown fullstacker for sure

My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.

spoonitnow

12-24-2008, 03:24 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

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Posts: 5,406

I only glanced at the hand but the river is a standard fold as your flush draw missed.

Edit: Okay at second glance I 3-bet the flop or raise the turn or something besides call twice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

bikes

12-24-2008, 03:27 AM

#5 (permalink)

a hot damn mess
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Posts: 2,467

3b the flop against unknowns probably get it in. If I'm calling the flop its to jam a blank turn.

"the world def needs more bikeses"

12-24-2008, 03:27 AM

#6 (permalink)

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yah i totally do look like a FD.

zook

12-24-2008, 03:31 AM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

3bet the flop and get it in.

Board: Jh 6c 3h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.776% 55.78% 00.00% 21535 0.00 { KdKs }
Hand 1: 44.224% 44.22% 00.00% 17075 0.00 { QQ-JJ, 66, 33, AhQh, AJs, AhTh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, 7h6h, 6h5h, 5h4h, AJo }

Yeah, AJ isn't in every villain's range but it's in a lot and worse J's are in bad players ranges as well. Take out a few combinations of AJ and you're flipping, which is fine.

griffey24

12-24-2008, 03:36 AM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

You're button and he thinks your range is weak. If you're not 3betting KK on this board, then your 3betting range has like no made hands in it at all.

If I decided to flat flop for some balance play, I'm definitely jamming turn.

JinxT4

12-24-2008, 03:39 AM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 265

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bbickes

3b the flop against unknowns probably get it in. If I'm calling the flop its to jam a blank turn.

This.

Also, assuming you're Keilah, why did you stop posting under that account?

[04:18] <+Bbickes> do u has teh agoraphobia?
[04:18] <+fat> im agressive yes

12-24-2008, 03:44 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

cuz this one jives with my 2p2 and stars names

L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

12-24-2008, 05:17 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Heh I was gonna respond here with my thoughts then I read the replies and everything I was going to say has alrdy been said, probably in a better way.

I like calling flop to shove turn because many times villain folds to 3bets with hands like AJ but on the turn when they fire again and you shove over, they feel like they have to call. If his unknown n has a set, that blows.

griffey24

12-24-2008, 03:50 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

If villain is c/r AJ for value on this board, he really shouldn't be doing anything but jamming over a 3bet on the flop. c/r folding AJ to a 3bet is turning AJ into a bluff...

IowaSkinsFan

12-24-2008, 04:08 PM

#13 (permalink)

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IowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enough

mmmmmm KK yummy.

Check out the new blog!!!

nutsinho

12-24-2008, 05:01 PM

#14 (permalink)

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if i checkraised AJ on the flop (which i would do exactly 100% of the time) i would be very excited to shove over your 3bet.

My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.

Stacks

12-25-2008, 04:44 AM

#15 (permalink)

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I'm really uncertain about this spot for some reason.. I mean I don't really understand the enthusiasm everyone has for b/3b/felting this flop. Is it mainly because villains value range that we are behind is so narrow (sets)?

What's our play in hero's spot with a hand such as AJ? What about QJ?

Also, nutsinho, regarding your c/r with AJ in villain's spot, how often are we going to be good when we jam over a 3b on the flop, and would c/r/jamming AJ be something you would advocate doing at 100nl/200nl or does it apply more to higher stakes games?

Thanks for the help guys.

griffey24

12-25-2008, 05:11 AM

#16 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

The enthusiasm is because we have an overpair on a drawish J high board. If we assume he's 3betting JJ pre which is a good assumption, and assume he never or rarely has J6,36, or J3 then the only hands he's doing this for value with that beat us are 33/66.

Compare this to the range of possible value hands/draws that will possibly get it in that we beat: AJ, KJ (sometimes), Ax hearts, KQ hearts, lower FD, 45, 57, QQ (discounted for pre), not to mention hands like 88-TT sometimes c/r this board for protection/value and any bluff he could possible have.

= enthusiasm imo

Stacks

12-25-2008, 03:27 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Thanks griffey.. That's makes really good sense.. I might have not worded my thoughts appropriately in my initial post. I obviously believe we are ahead here often, and I understand that the only hands generally in his value range that beat us is 33/66 (6 combos). I guess what I was confused about was if we are b/3bing this flop, what range of hands to put him on for shoving over our 3b. Hand reading is one of my weaknesses and is something I'm trying to work on.

Just to keep me thinking... What would be the weakest hand you would b/3b/felt this flop with in hero's situation? Kinda wondering about nutsinho's c/r with AJ (which makes sense), however, now I'm just wondering what hands we can expect our opponent to show up with that we beat if we are in villains shoes here and do c/r AJ. Thoughts?

BankItDrew

03-29-2009, 10:30 AM

#18 (permalink)

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100NL - KK vs unknown

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