|
Vi-Zer0Skill
|
08-01-2010, 10:26 PM
Post subject: 100nl JJ 3bet pot OOP
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
|
|
I've been at the table for only a couple orbits. MP seems semi decent, but doesn't appear to be a reg. (just checked PTR: he's not). I have no postflop reads.
b/f flop is best i think.. $22 would have been a better bet size tho. what should i do on the turn?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop
Hero (SB) ($107.25)
BB ($52.65)
UTG ($88.70)
MP ($98.50)
CO ($104.70)
Button ($106.20)
Preflop: Hero is SB with J , J
1 fold, MP bets $3, 1 fold, Button calls $3, Hero raises to $14, 1 fold, MP calls $11, 1 fold
Flop: ($32) A, 5 , 10 (2 players)
Hero bets $19, MP calls $19
Turn: ($70) 7 (2 players)
Hero..
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
lancelott_
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 151
|
|
i think your CBet is too big on the flop. I`d bet something like 16$ on Axx flop i SQed pot 100bb deep
turn I think ch-folding fine? I mean he`s gonna checkback Tx hands back a ton to get to SD, QQ-KK as well if he has those, will vbet strong Ax+ and random float bluffs, but you don`t have enouhg info on him if he`s capable of floating etc
again because of your relatively big flop sizing, once called i think you have to give up: his continuance range stronger.
Does someone check JJ-KK on this flop OOP? and in what type of situations/vs what type of opponents?
|
|
|
|
Mr. Diamond
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: verified poker sponsor
Posts: 237
|
|
yeah flop is cbet big and I would bet probably only 14 or so
- you have no history, so he is probably defending AK, AQ, maybe QQ, JJ, TT, etc. and he is not folding those to flop cbet
- so I would bet as little as possible to fold some random pocket pairs or suited connectors (just protect hand vs bluff)
- as played I would c/f
Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelott_
Does someone check JJ-KK on this flop OOP? and in what type of situations/vs what type of opponents?
|
I would cbet almost always in this situation - simply because you will be in bad situations, if you check here
- and if you have very strong read, that villain is calling a lot 3 bets IP preflop and he is trying to steal these pots, if you show him weakness, etc. (and he never saw you play ace like that, etc.) - you still must call every barrel (OOP with weak hand), because calling flop, turn and folding on river is super spew
- I think it is hard to find some situation, where this play will work, especially at low and micro stakes
|
|
|
|
grindinginnj
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Grinding In New Jersey!!
Posts: 143
|
|
I would have bet flop lighter, c/f turn is standard play in my book. If you c/c turn what is the plan on the river call if its a heart and hope your not dominated, or fold to a non heart bet on river? Dont like either one of those lines.
|
|
Stackin chips and rippin lips!!
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
I'd check the flop.
|
|
|
|
griffey24
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
|
|
I can go either way on the flop. If he's a non believer I don't mind a half pot bet or something. But otherwise, c/c flop seems ok.
As played, I'd just c/f and hope to get to showdown.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
|
|
|
Carroters
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,217
|
|
My standard line here is to c/c flop vs a lot of villains, but it really depends how wide he's flatting our squeeze. If he doesn't have many non pair hands here that need to bluff this flop then c/c will prolly jus get us pwned with out any info on how many streets he's likely to fire with any air/gutshots/draws he might have.
I'd probably go with b/f vs this guy and don't mind the sizing too much, I don't think we get any hands to call that are folding for 19 by betting less and I don't wanna risk inducing some spazz that we'll be folding the best hand to vs a guy we know nothing about.
Bleh ranting and really really tired, likely making no sense so w/e, c/f turn; don't see wtf else you can do unless you know he defends squeezes somewhat lightly IP and likes to float flops.
|
|
|
|
Pioneer
|
|
One Pair
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 18
|
|
Against an unknown I would CC flop CC turn and CF river.
If villain checked behind flop I would bet-fold turn and then river is either 1/2 pot bet or CC.
|
|
|
|
Da GOAT
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
|
|
can bet smaller on flop. he cant of hit the flop as hard as you can so he has to respect u. he is unlikely to float much so betting bigger isnt necessary. id bet like $12.
if he c/c then he likely has an Ax hand, AK or AQ so just proceed to c/f imo. since he aint floating air etc then he is gonna be vbing the turn.
|
|
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
|
|
Vi-Zer0Skill
|
|
Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
|
|
thanks everyone, i know this is a semistandard situation but i wasn't sure the best way to play it. my thinking with the betsizing on the flop was to set up the hand to play on two streets (bet flop/jam turn). i ended up shoving the turn which is in retrospect a pretty big spew. sometimes i have about 20% equity when he has Ax, sometimes i'm nearly drawing dead, as i was when MP called me with QQxh.
after reading your responses i see c/c flop c/f turn as best versus a non reg. i'd like b/f flop versus regs who 1. may float me with weaker one pair hands who know we know Axx is a good board for cbet and 2. have suited connectors they'd correctly turn into a bluff when i checked the flop OOP
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
|
|
|
Da GOAT
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
|
|
i think you put this reg on way too wide a range and give too much credit to him 
|
|
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
|
|
Genitruc
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
|
|
another option is 25 on flop shove turn
|
|
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
|
|
Genitruc
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
|
|
and btw it s definitely a value play
|
|
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
|
|
griffey24
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
another option is 25 on flop shove turn
|
This is too thin I think. He rarely has off-suit hands, so he rarely has a pair+heart or anything to call this turn.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
|
|
|
Da GOAT
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
|
|
betting big on flop and shoving turn seems so bad imo.
betting v small on flop is the way to go as i mentioned above, anyone have any reasons for wanting to bet bigger.
|
|
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
|
|
IowaSkinsFan
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
|
|
check the flop for sure
|
|
|
|
Genitruc
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
|
|
the guys i play against are very capable of calling flop w less than an ace, OP mentioned villain was pretty good, i d assume tough players will assume you're polarized when you bet this flop, calling with Ax, any broadway, Tx and raising every flushdraw (since they're all monsters if we assume he's not flatting like 67s pre in this spot).
so on the turn, villain (or at least the villain(s) I imagine) never has AK but quite often has a hand like KQ QJ JT that may have picked up a FD. Unless he has TTT or 555 it's never a snap call and shoving JJ w Jh here makes it a lot less tempting for villains to float you in later hands with less than an ace.
so ya i like bet big then shove turn.
|
|
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
|
|
Genitruc
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
|
|
grif you think he rarely has offsuit hands? hmm i guess the nl100 games i play are just happening on another planet.
|
|
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
|
|
Genitruc
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
|
|
and of course ya checking flop is fine and dandy.
i just dont like giving a good player a chance to 2 or 3 barrel me off my hand and don't particularly enjoy checking AK in this spot for balance.
|
|
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
|
|
Ravageur
|
|
Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
|
|
i c-bet here more frequently then check. I also think shoving the turn is fine since he probably doesn't have A10, he can fold Ax without a heart and the only really bad Axh is AQ and the rest we have decent equity against. He can fold better and call with worse and we also avoid folding the best hand when he has worse a lot of the time (since I don't htink any of you are advocating c/calling the turn or river).
|
|
Family Cruise IMO
|
|
griffey24
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
grif you think he rarely has offsuit hands? hmm i guess the nl100 games i play are just happening on another planet.
|
Are you really expecting to see a hand like QhTx here? Calling pre, calling flop AND calling a turn shove? This seems unlikely to me.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
|
|
|
jyms
|
|
Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
|
|
I don't think $100nl regs are calling too many 3bets w/anything but Axs hands and the odd AJo+. I don't think betting this flop is a good idea after preflop actions. We're not getting a couple streeets of action by worse. Checking the flop and hoping to have worse make a call or stab later is better IMO
If we do bet this flop it's to take it down immediately vs a non Ax hand that still has 25% equity vs us and we want him to fold it so I may bet bigger.
|
|
|
|
Icanhastreebet
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 999
|
|
definitely check flop
does nobody flat pre?
|
|
|
|
Icanhastreebet
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 999
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
and of course ya checking flop is fine and dandy.
i just dont like giving a good player a chance to 2 or 3 barrel me off my hand and don't particularly enjoy checking AK in this spot for balance.
|
lolbalance
|
|
|
|
Genitruc
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
lolbalance
|
ya true
|
|
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
|
|
sauce123
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
|
|
prob bet and c/f
|
|
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
|
|
IowaSkinsFan
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
|
|
I have rarely seen a player who 3 barrel bluffs in a 3bet pot when checked to in position. And I know this for a fact because I call down every single one of them.
|
|
|
|
griffey24
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I have rarely seen a player who 3 barrel bluffs in a 3bet pot when checked to in position. And I know this for a fact because I call down every single one of them.
|
haha awesomeness. Ok I'm glad to hear this, cause I always call two and fold like a pussy.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
|
|
|
Icanhastreebet
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 999
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I have rarely seen a player who 3 barrel bluffs in a 3bet pot when checked to in position. And I know this for a fact because I call down every single one of them.
|
such win itt
|
|
|
|
Genitruc
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
|
|
thank god i don t play ISF
|
|
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
|
|
sauce123
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
|
|
i dont understand checking flop w/out balance, meh. seems like an ideal cbet id just take it and keep my range continuous
|
|
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
|
|
lancelott_
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 151
|
|
sauce, what is our general plan on the turn, if our cbet gets called. Assuming we sort of know opp is capable of floating, but not to extreme point. I`ve always get kinda lost with marginal SDV hands OOP with a lead, not sure which factors to think about/what line is best. At what frequencies should we C/C tunr ch-fold or c/c rivers? or do we just ch-fold turn here w jacks w/o info?
|
|
|
|
sauce123
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
|
|
id c/f pretty much always unless u think hes gonna show with a hand like 8 high around 20%+ of the time
|
|
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
|
|
ZwiFT
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Valuebet/fold
Posts: 778
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
i dont understand checking flop w/out balance, meh. seems like an ideal cbet id just take it and keep my range continuous
|
my thoughts exactly
|
|
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
i dont understand checking flop w/out balance, meh. seems like an ideal cbet id just take it and keep my range continuous
|
This is 100nl and villain is not a reg. Our only concern should be to maximize EV against his range.
|
|
|
|
sauce123
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
|
|
ok then maybe if i thought i knew exactly what to do if he bet then id check flop, but if i was going ot have a tough choice then id bet myself
|
|
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
|
|
pocketfours
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
|
|
That sounds like a very solid piece of advice and your posts in this thread probably fixed at least one leak I had in these spots, so thank you.
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
06-02-2012, 08:10 PM Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
Linear Mode
