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05-24-2009, 12:43 AM
Post subject: 100NL defending against a 3b
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#1 (permalink)
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the guy is running 25/19 with a 3b of 5.9 over 347 hands
Standard spot to defend pf? Standard float on the flop? I might as well shove the turn since I'm pot committed after a call, but I didn't do the math for it during the hand.
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($200)
CO ($128.95)
Hero (Button) ($140.95)
SB ($63.90)
BB ($221.30)
UTG ($100)
Preflop: Hero is Button with J , K
3 folds, Hero bets $2.50, SB calls $2, BB raises to $13, Hero calls $10.50, 1 fold
Flop: ($28.50) 8 , 4 , 6 (2 players)
BB bets $22, Hero calls $22
Turn: ($72.50) K (2 players)
BB bets $40, Hero calls $40
River: ($152.50) 8 (2 players)
BB bets $146.30 (All-In), Hero calls $65.95 (All-In)
Total pot: $284.40 | Rake: $3
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AnTman_69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
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The flop float is def not standard, i don't like to float flops when i have pretty much no equity. How often is he doubling turns in 3b pots..if he's the type to give up on turns with an unbalanced range then i guess its ok. But if u hit a J/K on turn...and he doubles, ur gonna be like wtf.
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,467
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K so hate the flop float. hate hate hate.
Shove the turn. Fold the river.
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"the world def needs more bikeses"
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
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Fold preflop, his range is way too strong to defend with KJ and no reads that he likes to squeeze.
Fold flop because he made a big c-bet on a board that won't often get c-bet bluffed.
Guess you're going to have to shove the turn since this is the best card you could hope for but you're in a world of hurt since this guy which you've mentioned no 3bet history with, who's OOP, who's semi-deep with you, is pricing you in for a river call anyway.
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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oh whoops I forgot to write histories
I've been 3bing him a lot and he started 4bing me because my 3b is in double digits, but he hasn't really 3b me as much as I 3b him
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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fold preflop is so so so so so the correct play given reads and stack sizes.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
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I don't think any street in this hand is standard.
preflop is not standard, flop is definitely not standard, and given stack sizes and how much will be left on river I don't even think flatting turn is standard.
fold pre mostly, but calling sometimes is ok.
fold flop for sure, unless you have a read that he plays straight forward and will shut down with air on turns. Otherwise, his value range is too wide and he can "bluff" you on the turn with a second bullet and you'll have to fold too often.
Given stacks, jam turn for sure,since there's not enough behind on river for him to bluff really. Deeper stacks would make a turn call better.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
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Fold pre really? Even if he has 6% 3-bet overall, it's going to be a lot higher than 6% in this awesome spot to squeeze.
I really hate the flop float though since this flop slams a lot of the hands that he could be 3-betting light with.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Fold pre really? Even if he has 6% 3-bet overall, it's going to be a lot higher than 6% in this awesome spot to squeeze.
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I don't think 6 3bet is that high at all, and some ppl just don't squeeze much really. I guess his squeeze stat would be more helpful than his 3bet stat in this case.
Also SB's 3bet stat is also important here, cause if his 3bet is low I can see SB having a range here that he'd jam over our call with, which makes our worse.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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sb is bad so I'd never expect him to jam if he didn't think his hand was good enough to 3b in the first place
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
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Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?
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sweetlemon69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 296
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ipoq is 100nl now? wow
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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mcatdog, people dont squeeze much at 100nl. imo it only starts at 200nl imo
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
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Location: Toronto'ish
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?
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Yaah I mean mostly what DaGoat said. I have no clue how rampant 3betting is at 100nl these days, so if its fairly common then thats a diff story.
Though in general I'd say I learn towards the "folding more 3bets than most".... even in position.. so that could be why.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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golfguy37
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Straight
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 217
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You definately should have folded the flop. King High definately wouldn't hold up.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: The Loser's Lounge
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?
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I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position.
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Luke999
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: England
Posts: 238
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?
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I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position. |
100% agree
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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preflop i would def call but it's not like its going to be very profitable for you, particularly if you are floating flops like this. I mean, I could not actually pick a worse board and hand to float with than you have chosen here. Luckily you went from like 1% to 45% against his range on the turn so you should probably shove; I don't think a 100nl player is going to bluff you for 65$ into 152$ on the river nor do I think he will betfold TT-QQ or a draw getting nearly 4:1 odds to call your shove. I mean how do you make money at poker?
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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preflop i would def call but it's not like its going to be very profitable for you, particularly if you are floating flops like this. I mean, I could not actually pick a worse board and hand to float with than you have chosen here. Luckily you went from like 1% to 45% against his range on the turn so you should probably shove; I don't think a 100nl player is going to bluff you for 65$ into 152$ on the river nor do I think he will betfold TT-QQ or a draw getting nearly 4:1 odds to call your shove. I mean how do you make money at poker?
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I don't know, people just keep giving me money
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position.
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No? Maybe like a 16/13 with a 2-3% 3b, but not this guy who is going to be keen to 3b more from the blinds v lp openers which I believe is compounded by a squeeze opportunity.
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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obv mcat beats me to it, galap u can set me up an account where you play, just pm me when you're done
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lolzzz_321
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position.
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No? Maybe like a 16/13 with a 2-3% 3b. |
Basically this. Anyone with 25/19 stats is more than likely to have some kind of a clue about position.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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I see nothing wrong with folding pre, especially with the SB being so short he could def shove a bunch of hands on us. I'd probably call but I think its close.
As played id just ship the turn.
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?
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I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position. |
this can't be right, you think 6% is his value range? He has to be 3bing AJ for value to reach 6% or be running hot over 347 hands, which I doubt so I'm going to conclude he 3b bluffs a certain % of the time
I looked up more detailed stats and he squeezed twice out of 27 hands which is 7.7% (one of them being this hand of course)
he opened 14 times UTG, 20 times from MP, 27 times from CO and 52 times on the button so he's positionally aware
he cold calls 10% which is what explains the reasonably large gap between VPIP and PFR
I think you're off-base here
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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i wrote out a tilted response but deleted it. op last post tilts me 'alot' like dumb and dumber 'alot''
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
i wrote out a tilted response but deleted it. op last post tilts me 'alot' like dumb and dumber 'alot''
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I tend to have that effect on people
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,467
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hdjgshlkjdghlska warble garble
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"the world def needs more bikeses"
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
i wrote out a tilted response but deleted it. op last post tilts me 'alot' like dumb and dumber 'alot''
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I tend to have that effect on people |
its all good
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Luke999
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?
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I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position. |
100% agree |
where the hell do you guys play?
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
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Originally Posted by Luke999
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?
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I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position. |
100% agree |
where the hell do you guys play? |
seriously. 3betting fairly light/squeezing was common even at nl50 atleast at full tilt.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
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Originally Posted by Ash256
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Originally Posted by Luke999
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?
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I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position. |
100% agree |
where the hell do you guys play? |
seriously. 3betting fairly light/squeezing was common even at nl50 atleast at full tilt. |
stars regs suck lol
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siltstrider
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 85
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Is that because Stars doesn't have a formal rakeback program?
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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50nl does not have squeezers imo
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
50nl does not have squeezers imo
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FTP 50NL does, I played there this year
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
50nl does not have squeezers imo
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FTP 50NL does, I played there this year |
yeah, it most definitely does. Stars and FTP atleast.
Set me up with an account wherever you play when you get done helping out 3tanes.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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50nl does have squeezers
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
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I found very few on my site. I could have identified by name the guys I thought capable of squeezing at 50nl. I dont believe there was a single one other than myself 4-bet bluffing (except the occassional maniac who only had a bet/raise button of course).
Obviously on Everest the reg/tag pool is much smaller.
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Just playing to improve.
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Halv
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pro crastinator
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Probably sample size issue but I haven't seen alot of squeezing at all at 100NL on FTP in the couple of days I've been playing there lately. There's light 3-betting of single opens and isoraises for sure, but once there's a raise and a call it seems people are pretty honest. Which is nice since it allows for more loose preflop calls IP.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HalvSame
Probably sample size issue but I haven't seen alot of squeezing at all at 100NL on FTP in the couple of days I've been playing there lately. There's light 3-betting of single opens and isoraises for sure, but once there's a raise and a call it seems people are pretty honest. Which is nice since it allows for more loose preflop calls IP. |
that makes no sense because it's not like you're super worried about the guy who called a raise since he's in there with like low pps most of the time or a hand that's not worth 3bing
I haven't seen anyone other than me flat and then backraise a squeezer
I had KQs on the CO, and I shipped it in after a squeeze
since he folded he must have been bluffing therefore proving my point that people squeeze at 50NL
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Luke999
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: England
Posts: 238
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Well im mucking around on celeb poker atm. It's all 5max, nearly everybody at 50nl and 100nl (which is like 100nl and 200nl in $'s) constantly plays OOP with crap. Seriously most people are like 45/35's and shit.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Luke999
Well im mucking around on celeb poker atm. It's all 5max, nearly everybody at 50nl and 100nl (which is like 100nl and 200nl in $'s) constantly plays OOP with crap. Seriously most people are like 45/35's and shit. |
yeah you're playing on a euro room
FTP and Stars are the toughest poker sites on the internet to play on because that's where all the best US regs play
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
FTP and Stars are the toughest poker sites on the internet to play on because that's where all the best US regs play
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Luke999
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: England
Posts: 238
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Luke999
Well im mucking around on celeb poker atm. It's all 5max, nearly everybody at 50nl and 100nl (which is like 100nl and 200nl in $'s) constantly plays OOP with crap. Seriously most people are like 45/35's and shit. |
yeah you're playing on a euro room
FTP and Stars are the toughest poker sites on the internet to play on because that's where all the best US regs play |
Yeah I do play on them just because of the software. But euro sites are a lot easier I find just cuz everyone seems to be a spaz :P
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
I found very few on my site. I could have identified by name the guys I thought capable of squeezing at 50nl. I dont believe there was a single one other than myself 4-bet bluffing (except the occassional maniac who only had a bet/raise button of course).
Obviously on Everest the reg/tag pool is much smaller. |
Since this thread is way off topic, I'll delve into the rabbit hole a little further. Bjsaust, I can't see how 4bet bluffing could be at all profitable given the description you gave of your regs/site.
Back to the sub-topic, I find plenty of regs 3betting light and squeezing at Pstars 100NL. That said, most of them are fairly poor postflop or at adjusting.
Now that said, I would still fold KJs to the sqz here. Since his sqz range still crushes your hand. Postflop, this guy is not 3 barrel bluffing here like ever especially this deep & you hold essentially a bluff catcher.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
I found very few on my site. I could have identified by name the guys I thought capable of squeezing at 50nl. I dont believe there was a single one other than myself 4-bet bluffing (except the occassional maniac who only had a bet/raise button of course).
Obviously on Everest the reg/tag pool is much smaller. |
Since this thread is way off topic, I'll delve into the rabbit hole a little further. Bjsaust, I can't see how 4bet bluffing could be at all profitable given the description you gave of your regs/site. |
yeah but those people could be 3bing one raiser, in which case 4b bluffing is effective if they 3b light against one person
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Euro sites are harder than us sites from my experience of actually playing at them
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Think std 2+2 tag reg whos stuck at 50nl. 3bet bluffing is how you win poker dude!!! We pwn those noobs who dont read 2+2 because we do and we 3-bet bluff man!!! Those noobs are so easy to play because if they ever 4-bet they have the nutz and since we only 3-bet QQ+,AK for value the rest of our 7% (12% in the blinds coz we 3-betz button raises lotz dude!!) is pure air we're happy to fold coz they must have AA coz they're noobz and they dont read 2+2!!! Lolz, they probably havnt even watched that video by that unimaginative forum troll who did all the 3-bet bluffing!!
Or you know, something like that. Maybe I'm just lucky but I'd be lucky to have 10% of my 4bet bluffs called/raised. Lots of 3-bet bluffing, but probably only 4 or 5 of them squeezing light.
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Just playing to improve.
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I did the 4b shoving thing for a while
never lost a stack doing it, once got it in AK vs. 88 and that was the only time I got called and won the flip
I still do it against people who are like 3bing monkeys because they might spaz out and shove against a small 4b... which is why of course I do it stronger when I do it small (tell no one)
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
Euro sites are harder than us sites from my experience of actually playing at them
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lololol. i love when people say this. Take a look at all the graphs/HH's/etc posted on here and 2+2 comparing the 2 and this is far from the truth. I think Party is harder than it used to be, but its still supposed to be softer than stars/ftp. but places like ipoker/crypto or whatever other eurotrash sites are way softer.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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I don't get that at all.
Yes, some of them do squeeze and 3-bet light and have some idea of position and blind defense around 50-100NL,... but they're still terribad.
I could play any euro site, but atm I'm very happy with FTP because being realistic... how much softer can it possibly get?
I'll register at titan or redkings this week to get HEM-omaha and clear the bonus... I'll see for myself.
but srzly... do they just throw money in your face and run or sumthin'?
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06-02-2012, 08:10 PM Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
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