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100NL: C-bet? (I think I should've known this by now)

  
 
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jimmy44
Old 11-19-2008, 09:15 AM     Post subject: 100NL: C-bet? (I think I should've known this by now) #1 (permalink)  
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 No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($119.15)
Button ($103.50)
SB ($130.42)
BB ($100)
Hero (UTG) ($106.70)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 10, A
Hero raises $3.50, MP calls $3.50, 3 folds

Flop: ($8.50) 9, A, K (2 players)
Hero checks ???

villain was 21/17/2 (was a reg).
Is this a standard C-bet? Lately, I've been trying to be more selective on my c-bets and, now, I have a difficulty playing these TPMK hands ...
Need a plan.
1. FLOP Options:
a) C-bet/fold
b) c/c
c) c/f

2. TURN Options (if we c/c FLOP)
a) If villain checks FLOP:
a1) c/c
a2) b/f
b) If villain bet FLOP I believe that the only option is c/f

On FLOP what do you do? I would prefer 1.b)
On TURN what do you do? I would prefer 2.a1)
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minSim
Old 11-19-2008, 09:32 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I'd cbet this almost always. You're nog getting raised much as 2 pair is basically not in his range, nor is Axs.

A raise is 99 or a combodraw mostly. It's probably +EV to call the raise and play a turn looking to get it in on save one.

If villain calls your cbet I'd bet the turn to get value from a his draws, possibly KQ (which he might fold).

If villain calls turn as well, we'll have to play a river and I'm not very sure how to. It likely depends a lot on the board. I likely c/f or c/c based on his river betsizing.


Als note that sometimes you'll be betting into his AQ/AJ, but w.e. it doesn't make up that big a part of his range.
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WillburForce
Old 11-19-2008, 09:34 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 the way i see it (I play $50nl) - if you're gonna raise with A-10s from UTG and an Ace hits on the flop, you've got to c-bet.

Alot of the time I'd expect a fold.

If he's semi decent, he's gonna raise your C-Bet , so I'd prob flat a raise and fire again on the turn. Fold to another re-raise. If called try and check it out.

Am I completly wrong here?
Normski
 
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Da GOAT
Old 11-19-2008, 09:44 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Pelion
Old 11-19-2008, 10:30 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillburForce
If he's semi decent, he's gonna raise your C-Bet
what?

why?
gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-19-2008, 11:53 AM #6 (permalink)  
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lots of leaks ITT

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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jimmy44
Old 11-19-2008, 12:22 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 I guess this is a standard c-bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
lots of leaks ITT
What do you mean by ITT?
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sil693
Old 11-19-2008, 12:58 PM #8 (permalink)  
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in this thread?
 
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WillburForce
Old 11-19-2008, 01:28 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillburForce
If he's semi decent, he's gonna raise your C-Bet
what?

why?
This is the kind of spot I re-raise people. Very drawy board.

Its a horrible flop to play OOP, and I would think most good players know this.

Re-raising a C-bet here you'll get a lot folds (just like OP would fold to a re-raise with his A-10).

Just what I think (tell me if I'm way off) and would prob do if I'd called with 8-9s or K-Qs etc.
Normski
 
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bode
Old 11-19-2008, 02:00 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillburForce
the way i see it (I play $50nl) - if you're gonna raise with A-10s from UTG and an Ace hits on the flop, you've got to c-bet.
i agree with this part atleast.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-19-2008, 02:22 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bode
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillburForce
the way i see it (I play $50nl) - if you're gonna raise with A-10s from UTG and an Ace hits on the flop, you've got to c-bet.
i agree with this part atleast.
eh, if you're going to raise ATs it's to play it optimally. If caller doesn't defend light and the flop comes down A92 rainbow-road, I think it'd be a poor cbet.

ITT means in this thread.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-19-2008, 02:27 PM #12 (permalink)  
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http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...=2#Post8313278

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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jimmy44
Old 11-19-2008, 02:31 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by bode
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillburForce
the way i see it (I play $50nl) - if you're gonna raise with A-10s from UTG and an Ace hits on the flop, you've got to c-bet.
i agree with this part atleast.
eh, if you're going to raise ATs it's to play it optimally. If caller doesn't defend light and the flop comes down A92 rainbow-road, I think it'd be a poor cbet.

ITT means in this thread.
This was the reason I believed that c/c flop might be better.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-19-2008, 02:34 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I think it's pretty close between bet and c/call, not nearly as slamdunk bet as FTR wisdom seems to suggest.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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bigspenda73
Old 11-19-2008, 02:57 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 I might try and c/c a different Ace-high flop texture, but not this one.
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WillburForce
Old 11-19-2008, 03:17 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 This seems pretty standard.

We raise A-10s UTG, Flop comes with an A, with a flush draw showing and also a K showing.

What else you gonna do but C-bet?
Normski
 
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XTR1000
Old 11-19-2008, 04:52 PM #17 (permalink)  
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So many draws to charge, bet this flop.

And for our UTG range this is a nut flop on which I dont expect many players to spazz out.
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nutsinho
Old 11-19-2008, 05:12 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 OP, why are you so eager to fold this hand somehow? It's not bad to either check or bet this flop, but you are ahead like almost 90% of the time.

Willbur, you are a crazy person. Can you explain your first statement more? You're just asserting something pretty random with no logical explanation.
Also, this is a terrible flop on which to raise an UTG raiser's cbet. You can only credibly represent one made stackoff hand, 99, while the UTG player has many strong hands in his range. If utg1 is semidecent, we expect him to not raise much at all, because he will balance his marginal hands by slowplaying sets and big draws expecting to get double barreled a lot.
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bode
Old 11-19-2008, 05:22 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I might try and c/c a different Ace-high flop texture, but not this one.
This. i dont mind c/c some if this were a dry Ace high board, but this is far from dry.
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griffey24
Old 11-19-2008, 05:31 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 As far as I'm concerned, this board hits my perceived UTG opening range sooooo hard, and way way harder than it hits MP's range.

I'm cont betting here almost always, and if called, MP is getting tripled on any non heart turn/river. If he calls down and shows AJ/AQ, I write a note on villain that he'll call down triples with one pair vs my UTG open, and stack him next time.

(edit: note: I probably spew barrel more than I should, but I don't mind it in this spot. Its not an easy call down for villain at all)
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jimmy44
Old 11-19-2008, 06:10 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 Thanks for the very valuable input guys!
I'm starting to understand part of my nittiness

Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
OP, why are you so eager to fold this hand somehow? It's not bad to either check or bet this flop, but you are ahead like almost 90% of the time.
OMG, you're really good. After reading this sentence I remember that during the hand I think somehow I thought about this!

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
I'm cont betting here almost always, and if called, MP is getting tripled on any non heart turn/river. If he calls down and shows AJ/AQ, I write a note on villain that he'll call down triples with one pair vs my UTG open, and stack him next time.
It's a very interesting line indeed. Thanks!
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bjsaust
Old 11-19-2008, 11:08 PM #22 (permalink)  
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I value bet this flop. A lot of people dont like to fold.
Just playing to improve.
 
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WillburForce
Old 11-20-2008, 12:42 AM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
OP, why are you so eager to fold this hand somehow? It's not bad to either check or bet this flop, but you are ahead like almost 90% of the time.

Willbur, you are a crazy person. Can you explain your first statement more? You're just asserting something pretty random with no logical explanation.
Also, this is a terrible flop on which to raise an UTG raiser's cbet. You can only credibly represent one made stackoff hand, 99, while the UTG player has many strong hands in his range. If utg1 is semidecent, we expect him to not raise much at all, because he will balance his marginal hands by slowplaying sets and big draws expecting to get double barreled a lot.
hehehe....

I'm just finding, and prob not explaining very well, that flatting re-raises (and this is relating to my first post), you can then raise again and represent real strength. and get people to fold better holdings

I'm more than happy to be told I'm way off the mark, but I was trying to say, you c-bet (and this is related to OP hand), and then I'd flat a re-raise and raise again. I'm just seeing at $50nl, people betting into draw heavy flops to push you off.

does this make sense...?
Normski
 
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