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100NL: BvB:BB with FD + gutshot

  
 
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jimmy44
Old 12-08-2008, 11:59 AM     Post subject: 100NL: BvB:BB with FD + gutshot #1 (permalink)  
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 No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($96)
SB ($101.20)
Hero (BB) ($100)
UTG ($108)
MP ($114.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 6
3 folds, SB raises $2.50, Hero calls $2

Flop: ($6) 9, 7, 9 (2 players)
SB bets $4, Hero raises $12, SB raises to $21.50, Hero ???

No reads on villain, my first hand at the table.
Call? push?

Edit: fixed the SB 3bet size
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XTR1000
Old 12-08-2008, 01:33 PM #2 (permalink)  
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im allin.

saw u at the tables on friday i guess, but had the chat turned off. u gotta get on msn or aim or something bro!
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jackvance
Old 12-08-2008, 01:35 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 Your draw is kinda weak: drawing to low flushes, the ass end of the straight, and the board is already paired. His range is probably a bunch of pp's, higher flush draws and the incidental 9x. Overshoving it looks awkward but you get good odds to just call. Then hope he checks the turn..
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nutsinho
Old 12-08-2008, 01:43 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 fix betsizing so we can actually tell what the bet amounts are. im assuming its 4--->16--->33.50, but i could be wrong. You should be calling this flop most of the time and occasionally raising small. your play sucks. as played you dont really have any good or terrible options. roll the dice.
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jimmy44
Old 12-08-2008, 01:57 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 @XTR1000: Sorry but I have already trouble enough to play 4 tables trying to watch all the action, if I add MSN, then forget it

@nutsinho: Do you feel that his range to C-bet this flop is PP more often then overs/trash? If we min raise this flop then would you follow on turn if the board bricks and checked to us?

@jackvance: our equity vs TT+,9x (x>6), AdKd, AdQd = 33%, can't he fold TT-QQ and maybe AdKd/AdQd with a push? (of course with reads it would be better)
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nutsinho
Old 12-08-2008, 02:05 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy44
can't he fold TT-QQ and maybe AdKd/AdQd with a push? (of course with reads it would be better)
is this a joke?
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minSim
Old 12-08-2008, 02:26 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Nuts, please teach me/us;

- Isn't an unknown villain at 100NL SBvsBB b/fing this flop a lot?
- Even if he's b/3betting this light, we can profitably get it in by then?
(coinflipping at best obviously, but I'd think the FE easily makes up for it)

- Or is it that raising 'spoils' our hand in some way, because villains b/c range is very thin and we can get paid big when we call?
- Even if floating is ++EV, raising should be too shouldn't it?
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griffey24
Old 12-08-2008, 03:33 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 If I was playing against an aggro villain, I would rarely raise this flop. Raising this flop pretty much reps only a draw or air. It's bvb and nobody is gonna give you credit for 9x here.

A flop call reps a much wider range at least, and can still even include 9x type hands.

As played, I don't think we have any fold equity. The board is super draw heavy and he probably even expects you to jam all your draws in this spot. It really kills us to see a higher FD here....

I probably ship it in.. in the moment... but I almost feel that folding is best now.
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Alexos
Old 12-08-2008, 04:49 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 i call this flop more often than i raise it
as played this spot is pretty brutal, but id gambool
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nutsinho
Old 12-08-2008, 05:30 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Ok fine I'll give some reasoning for why calling is better...

When villain has air and is bet/folding the flop they will normally have few outs to improve to a hand they can do something other than c/f the turn with. Thus, raising doesnt accomplish too much more than calling for the purposes of folding out better unmade hands. When villain has 88+ or 7x they will call our raise and play fairly well against us on the turn and river; they will be unlikely to fold unless a flush card hits or the board comes 4 to a straight. Thus, the only significant benefit of raising the flop vs. this part of his range is the free card play. When the villain is bet/3betting the flop, he will almost always have 9x and bigger flush draws, a range we are like 25% against. He is almost never going to 3bet bluff us because the board contains a flush draw, so our fold equity on a flop 4bet jam is nearly nonexistent. We also have decent implied odds. If villain tries to control the pot by checking on later streets when an 8 or a diamond hits and they have some decent pair, they will be hard pressed to fold to a bet or two bets because of how wide our flop peeling range is. Since we are frequently peeling the flop with 7x, gutshots and OESDs, ace highs, and flush draws, it is hard for him to give up on the pot when our hand may easily have not improved to beat his.

Since we have enough equity to call the next street in position on almost any turn card, not enough equity to move all in profitably vs. villains flop B3B range, not enough folding equity on the turn and river on cards that don't actually improve our hand vs villains flop Bet/Call range, plenty of folding equity against villains flop Cbet range, and decent implied odds, the best play is to call.
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Alexos
Old 12-08-2008, 05:34 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 shipit
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thizzSantaCruz
Old 12-08-2008, 06:14 PM #12 (permalink)  
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once again nuts knows all.
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minSim
Old 12-09-2008, 10:38 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Nuts, the time I've become a winning 100NL player I'm gonna buy you something
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