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nogenius
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11-06-2006, 03:27 PM
Post subject: 100NL 6m Combo draw in limped pot
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 772
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Button ($153.50)
SB ($243.50)
Hero ($139.70)
UTG ($102.70)
MP ($51.55)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K , 8.
1 fold, MP calls $1, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.
Flop: ($3) T, A, K (3 players)
SB bets $2, Hero calls $2, MP raises to $10, SB folds, Hero ???
---
Villian seems to be somewhat aggro, I stacked him earlier when I flopped top set and let him fire 3 barrels into me with his 55 underpair.
What's your move here?
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
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If he was full stack I would say call but since he's 1/2 stack I'd reraise it up to about $25-30 or so.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
If he was full stack I would say call but since he's 1/2 stack I'd reraise it up to about $25-30 or so.
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If we are reraising, why dont we just push? I personally would raise the original bet on the flop. In this hand I dont think I would hate a call because I doubt we have much FE on a push and because of that our implied odds are good if we do hit.
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
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I would just shove
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Raising here would be absurd.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Raising here would be absurd.
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Glad I wasnt the only one that thought so.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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ZOMG combo draw, all-in, all-in!!!!
Yet, another thing I stopped doing.
The player pool plays too terribly to push spots like this. Heck, given that it's a nothing pot, you can make a strong argument for just folding since our hand is going to be very transparent to anyone who knows how to read a hand.
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johnny_fish
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
ZOMG combo draw, all-in, all-in!!!!
Yet, another thing I stopped doing.
The player pool plays too terribly to push spots like this. Heck, given that it's a nothing pot, you can make a strong argument for just folding since our hand is going to be very transparent to anyone who knows how to read a hand.
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Interesting. My first thought was instashove and gamb00l!!11!! too..
Still shoving can't be very -EV and doubling up a half stack isn't that bad. Small bit of metagame value can't hurt either right? (even though it's 100nl).
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
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You should call, and hope SB does something stupid. Why push him out of the pot?
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
ZOMG combo draw, all-in, all-in!!!!
Yet, another thing I stopped doing.
The player pool plays too terribly to push spots like this. Heck, given that it's a nothing pot, you can make a strong argument for just folding since our hand is going to be very transparent to anyone who knows how to read a hand.
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Interesting. My first thought was instashove and gamb00l!!11!! too..
Still shoving can't be very -EV and doubling up a half stack isn't that bad. Small bit of metagame value can't hurt either right? (even though it's 100nl). |
In a raised pot against a full stack I think a push is fairly standard; howerver, against a shortstack in a limped pot I just dont think the FE is there to make it profitable
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Yet, another thing I stopped doing.
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I have too for the most part, especially if the opponent has a full stack, because he is likely to bet an amount enough for me to call. The Problem is with calling a 1/2 stack raise is that it gives villain no option but to push any turn card (and correctly do so) and we are correctly going to have to fold unless we hit.
I raise it to 25-30 because I really don't mind if he calls, pushes, or folds here. Against any ace you're at like 47% equity, and folding would be, well, retarded. I don't like a push here as you are more likely to fold out all worse hands that they may try to push over the top with. Villain would never call an allin here with a hand like A4o but may decide to push over the top thinking he has any fold equity.
Quote:
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The player pool plays too terribly to push spots like this.
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and
[quote Heck, given that it's a nothing pot, you can make a strong argument for just folding since our hand is going to be very transparent to anyone who knows how to read a hand.[/quote]
So, wait, our opponents are too terrible to push on but also good shortstack players who can fold TP in a big pot? Right.
Folding is the worst thing of all in this spot, with calling second and reraising third. The implied odds are there to call and HU from the big blind OP could have any two cards, any pair, any draw that he bets like this.
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nutsinho
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Yet, another thing I stopped doing.
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I raise it to 25-30 because I really don't mind if he calls, pushes, or folds here. Against any ace you're at like 47% equity, and folding would be, well, retarded. I don't like a push here as you are more likely to fold out all worse hands that they may try to push over the top with. Villain would never call an allin here with a hand like A4o but may decide to push over the top thinking he has any fold equity. |
This is wrong in so many ways. If we push, it's because we want him to fold an ace. We gain more if he folds than if he calls (assuming his calling range doesnt have anything worse than a pair of aces). Therefore we want to make the play that has the most FE. However, any decent hand reader is going to think semibluff if we shove here. A scarier play is to reraise to 30 or 35, so that's what you should do. The notion that someone is going to shove over the top of your raise to 35 with a wider range than they would call a push with here is the silliest thing i've heard all day.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Quote:
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The notion that someone is going to shove over the top of your raise to 35 with a wider range than they would call a push with here is the silliest thing i've heard all day.
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Take that raise down to 25 instead of 35 and thats not true at all. If villain thinks you'll fold to a push, even though you wont, he's likely to go over the top of your allin with any K/another flush draw, QQ, etc. It takes a larger range to call an allin bet than to go over the top. Sort of a variation of the Gap concept.
Also, if Villain has a hand like A4 here, I wouldnt mind a call, given that you have 48% equity and are a coinflip to improve. It also sets up action of further round, and it proves that villain is, indefinately, an idiot.
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Robert
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
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nogenius,
In a limped smallish pot against a shortstack I like calling more than raising/pushing. Pushing might be +EV, but I dont think its the most +EV line.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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Because we'd be getting 3:1 or better to call a push after raising to 25, it says the same about our willingness to felt our hand as a push would. It also makes it look more like we want a call. If villain is thinking past the first level, we have just gained FE. If he's terrible, it doesn't matter anyway.
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