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100NL: 3bet flop: QQ with A high flop

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jimmy44

06-15-2008, 12:43 PM Post subject: 100NL: 3bet flop: QQ with A high flop

#1 (permalink)

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Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
4 players
Seat 2: BU ($189.30 in chips)
Seat 3: Hero [ QH,QC ] ($97.50 in chips)
Seat 9: BB ($102.25 in chips)
Seat 10: UTG ($142.15 in chips)
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is SB with Q

UTG raises to $3.5, Button folds, Hero raises to $12, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 4

($25, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $19.5, Hero ????

I should have 3bet this to $13.
villain was unknown. Do you call here and fold to a turn bet? or fold here? Is c-betting this good? I don't think so ... I believe we should get more value if we chech, no?.

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Fnord

06-15-2008, 12:46 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

What'cha know about UTG?

Check/fold is a reasonable line.
Check/call is fine too.

In any case, you have to play poker here and you can't do that unless you're willing to at least make some guesses about how your opponent plays. So you're left with a lukewarm hand out of position with a lot of money left behind, yet the pot is big enough that just giving him a mulligan hurts. Not a happy spot in the unlimited hold'them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

jimmy44

06-15-2008, 12:47 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

What'cha know about UTG?

Only 6 hands on villain.

Fnord

06-15-2008, 12:49 PM

#4 (permalink)

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See my edit.

This spot can not nor ever will be standard IMHO.

Part of the problem is that everyone and their brother bets out an Ace in this spot like 90%+ of the time and you don't have to play much to figure that out. He's got position and he knows he has you by the balls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

freechus9

06-15-2008, 03:08 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Part of the problem is that everyone and their brother bets out an Ace in this spot like 90%+ of the time

So why don't we rep one and bet?

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pankfish

06-15-2008, 03:23 PM

#6 (permalink)

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I think Cbetting this is good oop. I could probably call one time here. He has like 2 combos of AQs here, KK-AA, and everything else in his range we beat. And he is betting his entire range here.

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ATOTHEC101

06-15-2008, 03:47 PM

#7 (permalink)

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yup i like 17 lead on the flop and shutdown if he calls/raises. By just checking you completely give him the initiative to steal the pot away from you with all his range. If hes capable of calling with worse hands on the flop preparing to steal on the turn realising your 3 bet range of an utg player is fairly tight and often scared of ace high boards good for him, but you have to lead this flop imo.

noble007

06-15-2008, 10:15 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Yeah cbet A/K high flops 80%+ vs 1 opponent in std/3bet pots in/oop
= Autoprofit

Check folding is pretty bad given that you have the iniative & that in his eyes 50%+ of a std 3bet range vs utg raise has an Ace (AA,AK,AQs) as opposed to (KK,QQ,JJ and maybe TT) so if your not using your fold equity when an A does flop you're losing alot of value & + this villian wont pay you off when you have AK/overpair+ to the board in future if he sees you check fold in this spot.

Check calling is the worst option I think.
Imo the worst plan any hero can have for a hand when he finds himself with a marginal hand (with few outs) oop on the flop is to call one street and then 'hope' villian checks down turn and river - I think its a big leak of mine that I tried to fix.
(Usually check folding is better in this spot oop or giving one puff of aggression ie. bet fold , check raise, call flop bet scare-card turn - in this case cbet fold is optimal I think.)

(There are spots where playing a marginal hand passively to get him to bluff with worse is optimal but oop its usually just on the turn or the river imo because your hand cant take too much heat you'll be putting in money and folding later streets too often for this line to be +ev.)

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Vi-Zer0Skill

06-16-2008, 12:44 AM

#9 (permalink)

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c/c flop c/f turn is fine versus an unknown.

btw if he is double barreling air when we c/c the flop in this spot, all we need to do is play A-K+ like this often enough that our range is somewhat balanced. I don't like c-betting enough on Ace high flops that we can bet/call J-J/Q-Q/K-K on an A high flop because our 3bet range is generally much weaker than a typical 3bet calling range at 100/200NL.

bet/folding our big pairs on Ace high flops turns a good bluff catching hand into a bluff. this is an inferior adjustment to occasionally slowplaying if we find our opponent is giving us grief on the turn in reraised pots.

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kmind

06-16-2008, 02:32 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Agreed with the ones who say we are turning our hand into a bluff if we bet out. Why do that when we still have sd value? I like fnord's and Vi's posts.

axel

06-18-2008, 10:56 PM

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 7

isnt it weird that he bets 80% off the pot? there isnt really any draws out except the clubs (the little straight dosent count) so why bet that hard? he cant have a flopped set, AK or AQ maybe but he wouldent bet those that hard sense he only get called by better hands. i would put him on a flushdraw or a week ace if hes a real fish. all this based on his big bet. so i reraise pretty big in this position and represent AK or a set. but fold and avoid this complicating situation is not a bad move ether ; )

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100NL: 3bet flop: QQ with A high flop

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