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Lukie
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04-06-2006, 06:13 AM
Post subject: *glub glub glub*
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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5 players sitting at NL100 6max on stars
Villain's PFR range is pretty wide, he was something like 25/20 and definately splashes around. Havn't seen a huge pot with him involved, but then again my reads probably suck. We don't really have any history before this hand. He has $102, I cover.
UTG villain raises to $4, 1 fold, I make it $13.50 straight with As8s OTB. Standard fold I know, but I have a pretty tight image and expect to just take it down pf. Blinds fold, he calls. He probably has some pair or a big ace more then likely. He puts me on a big pair more then likely. Pot is something like $28.
Flop 2c Ad 5s. Villain leads for $30. Bleh. I really think I'm good here. There's obviously no value on a push though since he can't continue a bluff if I do so. I think there's a good chance he has some mid pair trying to move me off QQ/KK. He could also be playing a hand like AQ/AK fast, thinking I won't expect it with a hand like QQ/KK. If he continues on the turn, I tend to think that MORE THEN LIKELY he has it. I would be VERY shocked if he had a set.
Turn 6s, giving me a backdoor draw to the nuts. He pushes his last $59 into an ~$86 pot. I really think I'm beat here, and I doubt he expects me to fold after calling on the flop. But I reason that the combination of a bluff and that I probably have 12 good outs here makes this play +EV. I call.
Yes, I know I'm a fish. Thoughts on the hand?
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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if u call flop u must call turn.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i didnt think bluffing an idiot ever worked. :P
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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I think villain has AQ+ here more than you give him credit for. If he's smart, then he probably also realizes how little a threebet from a thinking player OTB means.
In short, I don't think you are giving him quite enough credit, and I don't think he is giving you as much credit as you think he is.
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Fnord
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04-06-2006, 02:54 PM
Post subject: Re: *glub glub glub*
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#5 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
UTG villain raises to $4, 1 fold, I make it $13.50 straight with As8s OTB. Standard call against this tool I know, but I have a pretty tight image and expect to go to war with this lagtard.
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Fixed your post
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Silly String
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04-06-2006, 03:12 PM
Post subject: Re: *glub glub glub*
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#6 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Sometimes even fish wake up with a hand. . .
I think if you had the read in your head that you laid out above, you have to go with it. Trust your instincts.
If your read skills suck, play more ABC poker & take less chances like pre-flop re-raising with A8s.
Here's what I don't understand:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
He probably has some pair or a big ace more then likely. . . Flop 2c Ad 5s. Villain leads for $30. Bleh. I really think I'm good here.
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Why did your read change? Was it his overbet? Had he done that before with a missed flop C-bet?
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Think about a couple things here. Think about what the villain puts the hero on, and how laggy villain would likely bet if he had the ace any kicker. I don't mind giving the villain credit for playing the flop fast with an ace. I tend not to however, because most aggressive types have a tendancy to slow play when they think they have it, and also the hero has a specific range in this spot incompatible with stacking off to stronger ace.
Now what about the turn? Now the villain pushes. Now what in the world could the villain put the hero on where a turn push will be the best play? Let's assume the villain has AK. Is he putting hero with tight image on a weaker ace? I doubt it. Does he feel KK or QQ calls this? I doubt it. Why not value bet AK all day? Let's assume villain has AT-AQ. Does he willingly push into a range which includes AK? No way Jose. He may call a push, but he's not lead pushing the turn.
One of two things can be true. The villain is completely full of shit, or he is playing like a genius out of character on purpose, somehow putting hero on a weaker hand that will call. Somehow feeling that a pseudo bluff line holds the most value. Hmmmm. Regardless of results, I play like hero here. I think more often than not you're ahead when this kind of opponent seeks a strong lead line like this with the likely ranges involved. I know it sounds strange, but proper to stack off here IMO.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Think about a couple things here. Think about what the villain puts the hero on, and how laggy villain would likely bet if he had the ace any kicker. I don't mind giving the villain credit for playing the flop fast with an ace. I tend not to however, because most aggressive types have a tendancy to slow play when they think they have it, and also the hero has a specific range in this spot incompatible with stacking off to stronger ace.
Now what about the turn? Now the villain pushes. Now what in the world could the villain put the hero on where a turn push will be the best play? Let's assume the villain has AK. Is he putting hero with tight image on a weaker ace? I doubt it. Does he feel KK or QQ calls this? I doubt it. Why not value bet AK all day? Let's assume villain has AT-AQ. Does he willingly push into a range which includes AK? No way Jose. He may call a push, but he's not lead pushing the turn.
One of two things can be true. The villain is completely full of shit, or he is playing like a genius out of character on purpose, somehow putting hero on a weaker hand that will call. Somehow feeling that a pseudo bluff line holds the most value. Hmmmm. Regardless of results, I play like hero here. I think more often than not you're ahead when this kind of opponent seeks a strong lead line like this with the likely ranges involved. I know it sounds strange, but proper to stack off here IMO.
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You may go through the above thought process in the villain's spot, but I doubt he did or does. His thought proces is probably 2 levels deep max at this level - but usually stops at level 1 out of convenience.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
if u call flop u must call turn.
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i dont think so. there are some people who you can be sure won't fire 2 barrels at you with air. people like this its a good idea to call flop and fold turn.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
You may go through the above thought process in the villain's spot, but I doubt he did or does. His thought proces is probably 2 levels deep max at this level - but usually stops at level 1 out of convenience.
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Villains thought process was simply to steal. He repped the ace on the flop, and the flat call by hero meant weakness so being potstruck he pushes the turn with $59 into a $90 pot as a desperate attempt at fold equity thinking hero has JJ-KK. Not too deep from villains perspective.
In this scenerio, a second barrel is dictated by committment, nothing more.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
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Quote:
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if u call flop u must call turn.
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Does this change if I don't pick up the backdoor draw, or is it just due to the fact that the next bet, which will almost surely happen, puts me allin anyway and if I wasn't going to go that far I should have just folded on the flop? I definately see your point and agree to an extent, but against a villain that won't 2-barrell bluff or put their stack in on a bluff, it wouldn't really apply.
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i didnt think bluffing an idiot ever worked.
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hahaha yeah idiots like me just love to hit that call button.
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I think villain has AQ+ here more than you give him credit for. If he's smart, then he probably also realizes how little a threebet from a thinking player OTB means.
In short, I don't think you are giving him quite enough credit, and I don't think he is giving you as much credit as you think he is.
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Heh, obviously I didn't think he has AQ+ there very often. If he puts me on a range of something like QQ-AA (my range here is wider and definately includes AK, but this game is passive and most wouldn't 3-bet AK here. fact.), then I have 1 combo of the nuts and 12 that really can't withstand a whole lot of pressure. I was definately playing tagg at this table, maybe something like 19/13 if memory serves me well and I'm not sure if I had 3-bet at that table yet. Maybe he's a genious and thinks that if I have KK, then I'm probably doing something like betting the flop, and checking behind on the turn, and I'm almost never going to the felt with it. But KK has virtually the same value as A8s here on the flop, so...
Lol, even against a lagtard though A8 suited or not just plays so shitty.. I think in this situation, given my relatively solid image and how wide his range here, 3-betting > folding > calling. Maybe I'm way off base here.
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Sometimes even fish wake up with a hand. . .
I think if you had the read in your head that you laid out above, you have to go with it. Trust your instincts.
If your read skills suck, play more ABC poker & take less chances like pre-flop re-raising with A8s.
Here's what I don't understand:
Lukie wrote:
He probably has some pair or a big ace more then likely. . . Flop 2c Ad 5s. Villain leads for $30. Bleh. I really think I'm good here.
Why did your read change? Was it his overbet? Had he done that before with a missed flop C-bet?
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Agree with the going with the read and trusting your instincts part. To an extent. This definately applies here.
Yes reraising A8s will get you into a world of hurt, but this seemed like a great opportunity to easily take an extra $5.50 preflop. Sure I'd like to have a big pair or AK or something, but we just have to work with what we've got  . This certainly isn't a standard play for me.
As far as my read that I was ahead, I said that after preflop action, it was likely he had a pair or a big ace. Action on the flop led me to believe the former. It would very much be out of the norm in the NL100 game for a villain to play AK/AQish type hands in this manner. Could/would this villain do it? Sure. If he couldn't, I wouldn't have posted it.
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Think about a couple things here. Think about what the villain puts the hero on, and how laggy villain would likely bet if he had the ace any kicker. I don't mind giving the villain credit for playing the flop fast with an ace. I tend not to however, because most aggressive types have a tendancy to slow play when they think they have it, and also the hero has a specific range in this spot incompatible with stacking off to stronger ace.
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I had a similar thought process going on in my head as I was playing this hand.
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You may go through the above thought process in the villain's spot, but I doubt he did or does. His thought proces is probably 2 levels deep max at this level - but usually stops at level 1 out of convenience.
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Good point, and I definately think that assuming everyone knows whats going on at a poker table is suicide, but this guy wasn't a donkey, I certainly would have said so if i thought that. Not that I think he's a great lagg either  .. don't get me wrong. That said, I don't really think it takes much thought process to put me on a hand like QQ/KK where that ace is a major scare card and would be easy to push me off a hand.
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i dont think so. there are some people who you can be sure won't fire 2 barrels at you with air. people like this its a good idea to call flop and fold turn.
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Yeah, but you also have to consider that I've picked up some reasonable equity on the turn and more then likely have 12 good outs if I'm behind, so hero only has to be best here a somewhat small portion of the time to make this call. I don't really feel like doing the math right now, but suffice it to say I think the flop decision is by far the biggest in this hand. Preflop too I suppose because that's what got me there.
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Villains thought process was simply to steal. He repped the ace on the flop, and the flat call by hero meant weakness so being potstruck he pushes the turn with $59 into a $90 pot as a desperate attempt at fold equity thinking hero has JJ-KK. Not too deep from villains perspective.
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interesting to note here is that villain's pot management skills really suck. Betting less on the flop and more on the turn adds a significant amount to his fold equity, IMO.
For the results oriented, please don't take this as a brag post because it's not, but villain had TT which did not improve.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Lol, even against a lagtard though A8 suited or not just plays so shitty.. I think in this situation, given my relatively solid image and how wide his range here, 3-betting > folding > calling. Maybe I'm way off base here. |
A8s is a great hand against a guy playing 2 cards really fast reguardless of the board. I would call pre-flop, call the flop and play poker on the turn against him a couple times.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I don't see any point in reraising preflop with this hand.
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gabe
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04-06-2006, 11:59 PM
Post subject: Re: *glub glub glub*
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#14 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
UTG villain raises to $4, 1 fold, I make it $13.50 straight with As8s OTB. Standard call against this tool I know, but I have a pretty tight image and expect to go to war with this lagtard.
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Fixed your post |
why do you think he is a lagtard?
reraising him is fine when his range is so wide. it also is great for shania if he is a regular.
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dsaxton
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04-07-2006, 01:27 AM
Post subject: Re: *glub glub glub*
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#15 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
reraising him is fine when his range is so wide. it also is great for shania if he is a regular.
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I'd rather reraise with a suited connector than this hand. There is hardly any value in building a big pot with a hand that is dominated whenever it gets action after the flop. I mean, how many flops can you think of where you would even want to get called if you bet? Maybe if there was a big ante or something you could reraise, but otherwise it's pretty pointless.
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gabe
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04-07-2006, 05:58 AM
Post subject: Re: *glub glub glub*
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#16 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
how many flops can you think of where you would even want to get called if you bet?
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there really doens't have to be any
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dsaxton
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04-07-2006, 08:14 AM
Post subject: Re: *glub glub glub*
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#17 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
how many flops can you think of where you would even want to get called if you bet?
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there really doens't have to be any |
Do you advocate making this play with 2-7 offsuit? If there doesn't have to be any postflop value, then making this play with any two cards should be ok.
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ender555
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 647
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
if u call flop u must call turn.
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Why do you say this? I think it's reasonable that the guy is bluffing, and unlikely that he will continue to bluff if he doesnt have the ace and is called on the flop.
I think I would call flop, fold turn unless you had much bigger stacks, in which case i would push.
side note: it's much better to re-raise with suited con's and small pairs, as you don't get into tricky situations like this, you can make your standard c-bet, and you know whether or not you have the best hand if called.
Well it looks like Gabe and Dsaxton said everything i said, i guess i should read all the repliest first.
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gabe
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04-07-2006, 12:36 PM
Post subject: Re: *glub glub glub*
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#19 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
how many flops can you think of where you would even want to get called if you bet?
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there really doens't have to be any |
Do you advocate making this play with 2-7 offsuit? |
i wouldnt argue against it. instead of winning a 6bb pot when they miss 2/3 of the time, you win a 20bb pot.
i'm not saying a8s is a reraise everytime, just saying theres nothing wrong with it. i reraise people alot with all sorts of hands when they are predictable postflop and wont push back with inferior hands.
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