$100 line check

**stuck** · 04-17-2008 02:56 AM

Hey guys,

I've been gone for awhile, but am back; just wanted a sanity check on this line. Villain just sat down a few orbits ago and won his stack with a set-over-set.. and seemed to like to push people around.. is this donk-ish?

edit: I should note that he waited a long time before the river push.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (4 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($160.00)
SB ($65.80)
BB ($181.50)
UTG ($172.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with

,

. SB posts a blind of $0.50. BB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50)

,

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $6, BB raises to $18, Hero calls $12.

Turn: ($44.50)

(2 players)
BB bets $36, Hero calls $36.

River: ($116.50)

(2 players)
BB bets $123.5 (All-In), Hero calls $102 (All-In).

Final Pot: $320.50

**kapilalink** · 04-17-2008 03:15 AM

fold pre

**will641** · 04-17-2008 03:57 AM

river is snap fold.

**stuck** · 04-17-2008 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by will641

river is snap fold.

What's villain's range here that it's a snap fold?

**Schiplt** · 04-17-2008 04:17 AM

i would want to fold every street

a straight is the bottom of his range here

**stuck** · 04-17-2008 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Schiplt

i would want to fold every street

a straight is the bottom of his range here

I admit it's a very scary board to be playing this hand, but you don't see him holding air here at all? He has overs and is trying to push me off the hand?

**will641** · 04-17-2008 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by stuck

Originally Posted by will641

river is snap fold.

What's villain's range here that it's a snap fold?

a boat, better straight, flush. all you beat is a bluff. even if you called here and he showed 2 pair or something, that is turning his hand essentially into a bluff.

**Marshall28** · 04-17-2008 05:02 AM

oops

**Marshall28** · 04-17-2008 05:05 AM

actually after looking at the rest of the hand, you butchered it so bad you shoul dnever have gotten to the river. if u r calling his flop raise it should be to shove over his turn bet to rep the flush (which is actually pretty suicidal w/out a read).

**Marshall28** · 04-17-2008 05:06 AM

A4dd makes a ton of sense for villain to have here.

**gabe** · 04-17-2008 05:47 AM

fold river for sure, everything else is fine

**stuck** · 04-17-2008 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by gabe

fold river for sure, everything else is fine

If he had insta-pushed I would have, but he took a fair chunk off the time-bank before acting

**stuck** · 04-17-2008 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by kapilalink

fold pre

but they were s00ted!

I normally do, but occasionally I raise crap like this for meta-game purposes (and I show if I pick up the blinds)

**will641** · 04-17-2008 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by stuck

Originally Posted by kapilalink

fold pre

but they were s00ted!

I normally do, but occasionally I raise crap like this for meta-game purposes (and I show if I pick up the blinds)

a lot of button opening ranges has to do with the blinds and who limped. if you have weak/tight players in the blinds, its probably profitable to raise otb with 25s, because you will steal a lot, and you will likely take down most flops with a cbet. hey ill probably be seeing you at 100nl shortly!

**gabe** · 04-17-2008 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by stuck

Originally Posted by gabe

fold river for sure, everything else is fine

If he had insta-pushed I would have, but he took a fair chunk off the time-bank before acting

using a chunk of time before acting can mean a million things, i would never use that to influence the decision

**will641** · 04-17-2008 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by stuck

Originally Posted by gabe

fold river for sure, everything else is fine

If he had insta-pushed I would have, but he took a fair chunk off the time-bank before acting

using a chunk of time before acting can mean a million things, i would never use that to influence the decision

even if you are just 50/50 on a decision? say you are just dead stuck on a decision, you dont let timing be the deciding factor?

**stuck** · 04-17-2008 03:41 PM

So a lot of you think I played this terribly, but I couldn't get over the feeling like he was trying to pull a fast one (like I said, he seemed to be bullying people, a bit too aggressive in the few orbits he was around). I know this is one of those situations where I'm either way ahead or way behind; I'm just having trouble figuring out why most of the people here think it's the latter instead of the former.

Here's a question: Would the river call be better or worse if the river had been a blank (say 2

)

Another question: What does he think I have that I'll stack off with? Granted, I'm just as much of an unknown to him as he is to me...

**will641** · 04-17-2008 03:50 PM

well you are 160bb deep here keep in mind. i sincerely doubt he is shoving just a set. i get the feeling you are being really results oriented and he showed up with like top 2 or something.

**stuck** · 04-17-2008 04:05 PM

Given the board, I don't see him open-shoving a flush (I could have a weirdly played set) (am I wrong about this?). A boat /is/ a definite possibility, and the one I took most seriously. I agree with Gabe that timing can mean a million different things, but he had been acting fairly quickly before, and I think that, in the aggregate, taking a long time to open-shove more often means a bluff than not...

Though I'm starting to come around to thinking it's a bad play

**sauce123** · 04-17-2008 04:28 PM

def fold river

i fold flop most of the time as well and check behind at least 40%

**nutsinho** · 04-17-2008 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by sauce123

def fold river

i fold flop most of the time as well and check behind at least 70%

i would prolly call flop though cause ur deep in position and have a bdfd to go with your shitty straight draw

**Galapogos** · 04-17-2008 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Originally Posted by sauce123

def fold river

i fold flop most of the time as well and check behind at least 70%

i would prolly call flop though cause ur deep in position and have a bdfd to go with your shitty straight draw

Isn't the bdfd the only thing that has a chance of being paid off making the "deep" argument valid?

**Galapogos** · 04-17-2008 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by stuck

Given the board, I don't see him open-shoving a flush (I could have a weirdly played set) (am I wrong about this?). A boat /is/ a definite possibility, and the one I took most seriously. I agree with Gabe that timing can mean a million different things, but he had been acting fairly quickly before, and I think that, in the aggregate, taking a long time to open-shove more often means a bluff than not...

I should hope you can never show up with a boat here because you would have played it awful to get there. No way you don't try to get a set in on that flop.

Also, I think the insta-push would be more indicative of a bluff as that means he has already made his decision before the river. When they think for a bit I tend to believe they're trying to figure how much value they have in their actual hand.

**nutsinho** · 04-17-2008 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Originally Posted by sauce123

def fold river

i fold flop most of the time as well and check behind at least 70%

i would prolly call flop though cause ur deep in position and have a bdfd to go with your shitty straight draw

Isn't the bdfd the only thing that has a chance of being paid off making the "deep" argument valid?

yeah...exactly...

**Galapogos** · 04-17-2008 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Originally Posted by sauce123

def fold river

i fold flop most of the time as well and check behind at least 70%

i would prolly call flop though cause ur deep in position and have a bdfd to go with your shitty straight draw

Isn't the bdfd the only thing that has a chance of being paid off making the "deep" argument valid?

yeah...exactly...

Sorry, I meant to imply that therefore it's not worth calling on the flop?

**gabe** · 04-17-2008 11:50 PM

folding the flop is for huge nits. learn about pot odds and outs

**Galapogos** · 04-18-2008 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by gabe

folding the flop is for huge nits. learn about pot odds and outs

We hit one of our "outs" and we still don't like our hand. I'm obviously not getting something here. Can you clarify gabe?

**minSim** · 04-18-2008 07:25 AM

It's 12 to call in a 32,5 pot on the flop. Sure not all your outs are good always, but with position and the sd and bdfd I call.
You can't fold on the turn already.
River you can.

04-17-2008 02:56 AM #1
stuck View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 516	$100 line check Hey guys, I've been gone for awhile, but am back; just wanted a sanity check on this line. Villain just sat down a few orbits ago and won his stack with a set-over-set.. and seemed to like to push people around.. is this donk-ish? edit: I should note that he waited a long time before the river push. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (4 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards) Hero ($160.00) SB ($65.80) BB ($181.50) UTG ($172.90) Preflop: Hero is Button with , . SB posts a blind of $0.50. BB posts a blind of $1. 1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, BB calls $3. Flop: ($8.50) , , (2 players) BB checks, Hero bets $6, BB raises to $18, Hero calls $12. Turn: ($44.50) (2 players) BB bets $36, Hero calls $36. River: ($116.50) (2 players) BB bets $123.5 (All-In), Hero calls $102 (All-In). Final Pot: $320.50
	If I had a hammer I'd drop in the morning I'd drop in the evening..
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04-17-2008 03:15 AM #2
kapilalink View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jan 2008 Posts 64	fold pre

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04-17-2008 03:57 AM #3
will641 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2007 Posts 5,300 Location getting my swell on	river is snap fold.
	Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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04-17-2008 04:13 AM #4
stuck View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 516	Originally Posted by will641 river is snap fold. What's villain's range here that it's a snap fold?
	If I had a hammer I'd drop in the morning I'd drop in the evening..
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04-17-2008 04:17 AM #5
Schiplt View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2008 Posts 111 Location poopin	i would want to fold every street a straight is the bottom of his range here
	here is my inspiration, ISF upset that he lost a dollar: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...806.html#28211
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04-17-2008 04:25 AM #6
stuck View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 516	Originally Posted by Schiplt i would want to fold every street a straight is the bottom of his range here I admit it's a very scary board to be playing this hand, but you don't see him holding air here at all? He has overs and is trying to push me off the hand?
	If I had a hammer I'd drop in the morning I'd drop in the evening..
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04-17-2008 05:01 AM #7
will641 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2007 Posts 5,300 Location getting my swell on	Originally Posted by stuck Originally Posted by will641 river is snap fold. What's villain's range here that it's a snap fold? a boat, better straight, flush. all you beat is a bluff. even if you called here and he showed 2 pair or something, that is turning his hand essentially into a bluff.
	Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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04-17-2008 05:02 AM #8
Marshall28 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2008 Posts 1,200	oops

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04-17-2008 05:05 AM #9
Marshall28 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2008 Posts 1,200	actually after looking at the rest of the hand, you butchered it so bad you shoul dnever have gotten to the river. if u r calling his flop raise it should be to shove over his turn bet to rep the flush (which is actually pretty suicidal w/out a read).

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04-17-2008 05:06 AM #10
Marshall28 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2008 Posts 1,200	A4dd makes a ton of sense for villain to have here.

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04-17-2008 05:47 AM #11
gabe View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2004 Posts 12,344 Location trying to live	fold river for sure, everything else is fine

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04-17-2008 02:41 PM #12
stuck View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 516	Originally Posted by gabe fold river for sure, everything else is fine If he had insta-pushed I would have, but he took a fair chunk off the time-bank before acting
	If I had a hammer I'd drop in the morning I'd drop in the evening..
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04-17-2008 02:44 PM #13
stuck View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 516	Originally Posted by kapilalink fold pre but they were s00ted! I normally do, but occasionally I raise crap like this for meta-game purposes (and I show if I pick up the blinds)
	If I had a hammer I'd drop in the morning I'd drop in the evening..
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04-17-2008 02:50 PM #14
will641 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2007 Posts 5,300 Location getting my swell on	Originally Posted by stuck Originally Posted by kapilalink fold pre but they were s00ted! I normally do, but occasionally I raise crap like this for meta-game purposes (and I show if I pick up the blinds) a lot of button opening ranges has to do with the blinds and who limped. if you have weak/tight players in the blinds, its probably profitable to raise otb with 25s, because you will steal a lot, and you will likely take down most flops with a cbet. hey ill probably be seeing you at 100nl shortly!
	Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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04-17-2008 03:15 PM #15
gabe View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2004 Posts 12,344 Location trying to live	Originally Posted by stuck Originally Posted by gabe fold river for sure, everything else is fine If he had insta-pushed I would have, but he took a fair chunk off the time-bank before acting using a chunk of time before acting can mean a million things, i would never use that to influence the decision

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04-17-2008 03:22 PM #16
will641 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2007 Posts 5,300 Location getting my swell on	Originally Posted by gabe Originally Posted by stuck Originally Posted by gabe fold river for sure, everything else is fine If he had insta-pushed I would have, but he took a fair chunk off the time-bank before acting using a chunk of time before acting can mean a million things, i would never use that to influence the decision even if you are just 50/50 on a decision? say you are just dead stuck on a decision, you dont let timing be the deciding factor?
	Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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04-17-2008 03:41 PM #17
stuck View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 516	So a lot of you think I played this terribly, but I couldn't get over the feeling like he was trying to pull a fast one (like I said, he seemed to be bullying people, a bit too aggressive in the few orbits he was around). I know this is one of those situations where I'm either way ahead or way behind; I'm just having trouble figuring out why most of the people here think it's the latter instead of the former. Here's a question: Would the river call be better or worse if the river had been a blank (say 2) Another question: What does he think I have that I'll stack off with? Granted, I'm just as much of an unknown to him as he is to me...
	If I had a hammer I'd drop in the morning I'd drop in the evening..
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04-17-2008 03:50 PM #18
will641 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2007 Posts 5,300 Location getting my swell on	well you are 160bb deep here keep in mind. i sincerely doubt he is shoving just a set. i get the feeling you are being really results oriented and he showed up with like top 2 or something.
	Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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04-17-2008 04:05 PM #19
stuck View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 516	Given the board, I don't see him open-shoving a flush (I could have a weirdly played set) (am I wrong about this?). A boat /is/ a definite possibility, and the one I took most seriously. I agree with Gabe that timing can mean a million different things, but he had been acting fairly quickly before, and I think that, in the aggregate, taking a long time to open-shove more often means a bluff than not... Though I'm starting to come around to thinking it's a bad play
	If I had a hammer I'd drop in the morning I'd drop in the evening..
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04-17-2008 04:28 PM #20
sauce123 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2007 Posts 2,706 Location Dizzy	def fold river i fold flop most of the time as well and check behind at least 40%
	I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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04-17-2008 04:36 PM #21
nutsinho View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 3,840 Location flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt	Originally Posted by sauce123 def fold river i fold flop most of the time as well and check behind at least 70% i would prolly call flop though cause ur deep in position and have a bdfd to go with your shitty straight draw
	My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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04-17-2008 05:28 PM #22
Galapogos View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jun 2005 Posts 6,534 Location The Loser's Lounge	Originally Posted by nutsinho Originally Posted by sauce123 def fold river i fold flop most of the time as well and check behind at least 70% i would prolly call flop though cause ur deep in position and have a bdfd to go with your shitty straight draw Isn't the bdfd the only thing that has a chance of being paid off making the "deep" argument valid?
	Originally Posted by sauce123 I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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04-17-2008 05:31 PM #23
Galapogos View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jun 2005 Posts 6,534 Location The Loser's Lounge	Originally Posted by stuck Given the board, I don't see him open-shoving a flush (I could have a weirdly played set) (am I wrong about this?). A boat /is/ a definite possibility, and the one I took most seriously. I agree with Gabe that timing can mean a million different things, but he had been acting fairly quickly before, and I think that, in the aggregate, taking a long time to open-shove more often means a bluff than not... I should hope you can never show up with a boat here because you would have played it awful to get there. No way you don't try to get a set in on that flop. Also, I think the insta-push would be more indicative of a bluff as that means he has already made his decision before the river. When they think for a bit I tend to believe they're trying to figure how much value they have in their actual hand.
	Originally Posted by sauce123 I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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04-17-2008 06:35 PM #24
nutsinho View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 3,840 Location flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt	Originally Posted by Galapogos Originally Posted by nutsinho Originally Posted by sauce123 def fold river i fold flop most of the time as well and check behind at least 70% i would prolly call flop though cause ur deep in position and have a bdfd to go with your shitty straight draw Isn't the bdfd the only thing that has a chance of being paid off making the "deep" argument valid? yeah...exactly...
	My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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04-17-2008 07:07 PM #25
Galapogos View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jun 2005 Posts 6,534 Location The Loser's Lounge	Originally Posted by nutsinho Originally Posted by Galapogos Originally Posted by nutsinho Originally Posted by sauce123 def fold river i fold flop most of the time as well and check behind at least 70% i would prolly call flop though cause ur deep in position and have a bdfd to go with your shitty straight draw Isn't the bdfd the only thing that has a chance of being paid off making the "deep" argument valid? yeah...exactly... Sorry, I meant to imply that therefore it's not worth calling on the flop?
	Originally Posted by sauce123 I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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04-17-2008 11:50 PM #26
gabe View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2004 Posts 12,344 Location trying to live	folding the flop is for huge nits. learn about pot odds and outs

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04-18-2008 05:58 AM #27
Galapogos View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jun 2005 Posts 6,534 Location The Loser's Lounge	Originally Posted by gabe folding the flop is for huge nits. learn about pot odds and outs We hit one of our "outs" and we still don't like our hand. I'm obviously not getting something here. Can you clarify gabe?
	Originally Posted by sauce123 I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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04-18-2008 07:25 AM #28
minSim View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2007 Posts 1,525 Location Deventer	It's 12 to call in a 32,5 pot on the flop. Sure not all your outs are good always, but with position and the sd and bdfd I call. You can't fold on the turn already. River you can.

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