[50NL] JJ...3bet pot. Turn jam

Villain is 29/23/9 (3bet) over 401 hands. FT3B 50%. FTCB 43%

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $21.78
Hero (BB): $52.35
UTG: $99.50
CO: $50.00
BTN: $65.99

SB posts SB $0.25, Hero posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has J:spade: J:heart:

UTG raises to $1.50, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $5.25, UTG calls $3.75

Flop: ($10.75, 2 players) 9:diamond: T:diamond: 9:club:
Hero bets $7.00, UTG raises to $16.00, Hero calls $9.00

Turn: ($42.75, 2 players) 2:heart:
Hero checks, UTG bets $40.83, Hero ???

I'm not sure about everything in this hand.

Is the 3bet pre OK? With a 50% FT3B, it seems a clear 3bet for value.

On the flop, I was tempted to jam and GII on such a wet board but opted for the call.

Turn is a complete blank and he jams anyway.

www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: Td9d9c2h
Equity Win Tie
MP3 58.78% 57.05% 1.72% { QQ-99, ATs-A9s, QJs, T9s, 87s, AdKd, AdQd, KdQd, AdJd, KdJd }
BB 41.22% 39.50% 1.72% { JhJs }

Using his fold to 3bet stat in this situation to imply that what you did is for value is slightly strange imo. What's he opening UTG? It's far more likely that people fold too much to 3bets when opening UTG even if they are defending too wide in more common spots like BTN vs blinds or BvB. And even so you have no idea of his 3bet defending tendencies after 401 hands that'll be like 20 spots at the most which is nothing.

There's the argument that he's adjusting for 5 handed which isn't always the case at all and even if he is most peoples MP opens tend not to be too wide.

All that being said I think 3betting JJ some of the time is fine but I also think it's a good enough hand to flat against a lot of people in the BB. I'd much favour 3betting in the SB and flatting in the BB tbh.

I also don't think it's impossible for villain to flat AA here some of the time either. Also why no hands like 98s? Definitely some more trips imo but seems strange for him to be playing some of those FDs this way. I'd be folding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

Using his fold to 3bet stat in this situation to imply that what you did is for value is slightly strange imo. What's he opening UTG? It's far more likely that people fold too much to 3bets when opening UTG even if they are defending too wide in more common spots like BTN vs blinds or BvB. And even so you have no idea of his 3bet defending tendencies after 401 hands that'll be like 20 spots at the most which is nothing.

There's the argument that he's adjusting for 5 handed which isn't always the case at all and even if he is most peoples MP opens tend not to be too wide.

All that being said I think 3betting JJ some of the time is fine but I also think it's a good enough hand to flat against a lot of people in the BB. I'd much favour 3betting in the SB and flatting in the BB tbh.

I also don't think it's impossible for villain to flat AA here some of the time either. Also why no hands like 98s? Definitely some more trips imo but seems strange for him to be playing some of those FDs this way. I'd be folding.

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Why is it strange? He clearly doesn't like folding to 3bets, I don't think it's even close that the 3bet pre is for value. I would expect villain to have adjusted his ranges given we are 5 handed, I would expect villain to be opening quite a lot of hands.

My 3bet looks pretty strong, BB vs MP, I would expect him to be looking to GII w/ KK+ as I am very rarely messing about here.

98s makes sense, don't know why I haven't added that. Why would it be strange for him to play his FD's this way?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

Using his fold to 3bet stat in this situation to imply that what you did is for value is slightly strange imo.

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I don't find it strange in any way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Why is it strange? He clearly doesn't like folding to 3bets, I don't think it's even close that the 3bet pre is for value. I would expect villain to have adjusted his ranges given we are 5 handed, I would expect villain to be opening quite a lot of hands.

My 3bet looks pretty strong, BB vs MP, I would expect him to be looking to GII w/ KK+ as I am very rarely messing about here.

98s makes sense, don't know why I haven't added that. Why would it be strange for him to play his FD's this way?

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Already had long drawn out conversations about 3bets being for value or as bluffs pre and how it's silly to define them as such. Not having that again. Just pointing out that the figures you have quoted don't really alter his ranges in positions like this all that much.

I just think pot shoving into a really strong range on the turn with all his FDs is a bit much that's all. Could be wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pocketfours

I don't find it strange in any way.

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You're obviously a better player than I am but if I write our a reply explaining why I think it's a bit strange not just stating it surely it's not too much to ask that you tell me what's wrong with my argument?

If you've just read that statement I made in isolation from the rest of the post obviously we use that stat but I'm arguing that we don't really have the evidence to back up changing what we'd do as a default in this spot. So he should be saying I 3bet JJ because *reasons he'd always do it as standard*. I wasn't saying 3betting JJ in this spot is bad.

I think fold flop to raise. I don't expect to see AT here, this is trips, overpair or monster draw like QJdd. I don't really feel like dancing with that range. He knows we have a hand so it makes no sense for him to have anything we crush here. At best we're flipping vs his draws, at worst we're drawing to two outs. This is at flop. Turn is even easier fold because he now knows for sure we have JJ+ yet he still fires.

I like pre. At first I thought a bit much but then he's calling so often so fine.

I would definitely need to know villains VPIP UTG to make any comments on preflop.

My standard here would be to call often pre, but if villain is opening wide UTG (20%+) and calling 3b light, I can see merits to 3b.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

I'm arguing that we don't really have the evidence to back up changing what we'd do as a default in this spot.

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I think in general 5 handed it's pretty close between call and 3bet JJ from the blinds vs UTG. Villain call vs 3bet feels to me like the most important thing to consider when making the decision (so not at all strange). If he calls 3bets a lot then he's likely not a nit about it when opening UTG either.

Fold turn.

I think that you could only made a call preflop, but and your raise is not very wrong move.
Your bet on the flop looks like very correct move, but his raise looks like he has JJ+ or maybe TT. However, your call here is fine, because you had a chance to see another Jack on the turn.
His moves on the turn and the dealt 2h looks nothing else than to go fold.
You played this hand well, but his raise looks like he has full of JJ+, so for my opinion is better to fold here, than to risk all your money.

Only a nit would fold the flop or turn...Unless you are up against a nit or very passive opponent you have to stack off.

You will lose your stack often, but you will come out ahead. You are probably weak against his range, but folding would still be worse.

3-bet flop, call turn. Preflop reraise is for thick value, JJ is a big hand vs a 23 pfr in the hijack.

I think that the turn is probably fairly close, but you block a likely 9 and beat a lot of draws he may decide to shove.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

Already had long drawn out conversations about 3bets being for value or as bluffs pre and how it's silly to define them as such. Not having that again. Just pointing out that the figures you have quoted don't really alter his ranges in positions like this all that much.

I just think pot shoving into a really strong range on the turn with all his FDs is a bit much that's all. Could be wrong.



You're obviously a better player than I am but if I write our a reply explaining why I think it's a bit strange not just stating it surely it's not too much to ask that you tell me what's wrong with my argument?

If you've just read that statement I made in isolation from the rest of the post obviously we use that stat but I'm arguing that we don't really have the evidence to back up changing what we'd do as a default in this spot. So he should be saying I 3bet JJ because *reasons he'd always do it as standard*. I wasn't saying 3betting JJ in this spot is bad.

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A 23 pfr will probably open about 22-24 percent of hands from the hijack, this is roughly any broadway, 22+ 54s+ 86s+ J8s+ K9s+ A2s+. If he calls with 50% of that, its about 55+ KQo AQo AKo 76s+ 97s+ KTs ATs, and JJ has 63.5% vs that; in reality your equity will be much better than that vs his call range since it will omit his 4-bet value hands. And he'll probably bluff often enough to 5-bet jam over his 4-betting range. And all of this is forgetting the dead money you win vs his folding range.

cliffs: it's a clear reraise.