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Insider Information: All poker rooms are rigged

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  1. #1

    Default Insider Information: All poker rooms are rigged

    Hi, my name is Esko and am a finnish software engineer - i am on vacation in Italy now and took some time to write this post.
    Until the 31st of december 2007 i have been working at one of the major poker sites as a programmer and now that my contract has expired i would like to share some simple info with you that should make you more aware of what you're dealing with.
    Ever wondered why so many times you see AA vs KK preflop? Why you or your opponent hit that straight at the river? Why more often than it ought be fish playing with rags flops a monster?
    All poker room's random card generators are not as random as you'd expect them to be: let's say they're SEMI-random. I'll explain in simple words how it works, at least how the one i've been programming and revising works.
    Out of 100 hands (i use 100 to simplify) dealt, at least 50 are completely random - we used a complex algorythm to generate the cards which i won't explain in detail - what happens to the rest of the hands? Well they're semi-random because at times at least 2 players (randomly chosen) get one of the following: suited connectors, connectors, ace-x suited, AK or big pocket pairs and at the same time the flop gives both (or more) of them good odds for improving their hand or a made hand. Then the engine does the following - algorythms may vary whether it is a ring game or a tournament - it favors the stronger player, the one with the most chips. But remember, it is not always like that, but the odds are in his favor let's say 60/70 out of 100 times. At times, instead, just to mix things up, it favors those who play with rags like Q7 or 36 giving them made hands at the flop , just to make it more likely they will slowplay, get called and then go all in at showdown.
    Other times the game looks like a regular game but then comes the miracle river, i.e. a card that would make one player the flush and the other the full house...
    Well, this is a simplification, the overall trick is very complex and very subtle to detect, but what it does is essentially make tourneys finish faster and make ring games get richer pots with players busting out sooner and looser players stay in the game and make the game go more crazy than it otherwise would be.
    I repeat, the system works in very subtle ways, but the main outcome is this:
    Faster tourneys=more tourneys x hour=more people buying in=more $$
    More people busting out in ring games=more $$ deposited
    More loose play="Any two will do" mentality=more $$ coming in as rakes
    And don't come telling me about game commissions, random generators checked out etc.etc. - it's all bullshit - besides being the algorythms very subtle (yet effective) thus not easily detectable, some commisions can be easily manipulated, tricked, bribed etc etc. -
    What is detectable is the outcome: more monster hands being flopped, more AA vs KK preflop all-ins, more "miracle" river cards etc.etc. but what commissions are approving are the seemingly "random" card generators (rember: the cards are random but the outcome of the hand is not!), not the odds they get out of 100.000 recorded hands so although the end of day stats show that the game is clearly rigged because of the clearly impossible high number of monster hands clashing with one another, your average poker room has a RNG commission-approved, fish players are happy because * at times * they win big with rags at the flop and good players are happy because * at times * their solid play works and they get called to the river. Well, it's your old casino system at work, (if they guy next to me hit the jackpot, it could happen to me too) but in poker rooms it is disguised as a fair and truly level and random game between players, as if the house was just there as a service provider.
    Tip nr.1: If in a multi table tournament you're a short stack, your chances of making it to the money are much lower than what you think.
    Tip nr.2:Be aware to go all-in preflop with KK because it is likely someone else will call you with AA!
    Tip nr.3:Be aware to go all-in preflop with AA (especially if you're a short stack )- the big stack next to you will call with 22 and flop a set or a flush more often than what the odds say!
    So, in the end, forget Doyle Brunson's Supersystem, Phil Hellmuth's Play like the pros and even Poker for Dummies when you're online, because at your poker room the outcome is more doomed by chance than what your odds calculators say and the house has a big edge, and is not a mere spectator dealing cards.

    P.S.: And what about the pros playing at some major sites? well you think they are featured for free? Of course they get paid to play at that site, shut up about odds and praise that room on gambling magazines: oh look! Mr. XYZ plays at ABC! if he plays there it must be a great site with a truly fair game!
  2. #2
    Wow, you have no idea, do you? Just the wording in your post tells us that you have no clue what you are talking about. Tell you what mister Algorithm expert, why don't you lose the laymans terms and speak the speak. We have enough guys here that know a thing or two. Show us some proof.

    And your theory's as to why they would cheat, are not the reasons for cheating.

    You are hidden behind a fake name, so name some names, and some sites. Post some examples, for one, why would a multi million dollar business allow someone with this info, run out a contract?
  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
    Wow, you have no idea, do you? Just the wording in your post tells us that you have no clue what you are talking about. Tell you what mister Algorithm expert, why don't you lose the laymans terms and speak the speak. We have enough guys here that know a thing or two. Show us some proof.
    I use layman words because i see no point in explaining to a poker forum how a matrix linear recurrence is used in a Mersenne twister to pseudo-generate cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
    And your theory's as to why they would cheat, are not the reasons for cheating.
    Well the reason is what makes the world go round: more money

    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
    You are hidden behind a fake name, so name some names, and some sites. Post some examples, for one, why would a multi million dollar business allow someone with this info, run out a contract?
    Lol you want me to get sued by a multimillion dollars corporation legal office?
    My contract has expired because not everybody works forever at the same place - hasn't it dawned on you i might have gotten a better job somewhere else and quit?
  4. #4
  5. #5
    with so many people who play seriously using tools like pokertracker and whatnot, don't you think communities like FTR and 2+2 can fairly easily refute whatever you're claiming? Isnt there a handy tool that shows you how often you were dealt AA vs KK?

    in any case i do not understand why people like you make such massively long troll posts.
  6. #6
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    Hi Esko,
    why havent you used your Mersenne twister pseudo card generator to go and pwn high stakes?
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by eugmac
    with so many people who play seriously using tools like pokertracker and whatnot, don't you think communities like FTR and 2+2 can fairly easily refute whatever you're claiming? Isnt there a handy tool that shows you how often you were dealt AA vs KK?

    in any case i do not understand why people like you make such massively long troll posts.
    You're missing the point.
    The single user cannot easily detect that his game or the guy next door's game is rigged. But if you take all the hands played in a single day at a major room you'll see that the number of made hands per table (which translates in people calling and going to showdowns) is significantly higher than what statistics would predict.
    The AA vs KK is an over simplification of the issue - i told the the system is VERY SUBTLE so you can't easily detect a pattern with a tool like pokertracker - what the system does in the end is assure a growing cash flow to the site, far greater than what it would be if the outcome of the hands was completely and genuinely random.

    Anyway i knew i would get bashed by posting this stuff in a poker supporters forum - you beleive what you want to beleive - if you make money on a regular basis good for you - i just wanted to warn the guy from the street what he's dealing with.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Taxi
    Hi Esko,
    why havent you used your Mersenne twister pseudo card generator to go and pwn high stakes?
    1. Because its seed is randomly generated and changed on a regular basis

    2. I could cheat an easier way if i wanted to - like the guy at absolute did
  9. #9
    If the game is truly genuine then professional poker players would at least show some profit from the games played online, right? Wouldn't they have the edge over the fish?

    Then explain me why many pros playing online tournaments show miserable results?
    Isn't this a proof that online poker is doomed by chance?

    Just a few regulars at Full Tilt

    I'm not allowed to post links but check yourselves on official poker rankings . com (remove spaces)

    Chip Jett: profit=zero
    Karina Jettrofit=zero
    Erick Lindgrenrofit=zero
    Layne Flackrofit=zero
  10. #10
    this makes sense because I couldn't figure out how online poker rooms made money.

    Care to consider tip 2 and tip 3 again? It may help when you post this on 2+2.
  11. #11
    Even if you didn't speak like a 10 year old no one here is going to believe if you if you don't post any proof. Admin's please delete this post as if it deters fish from depositing, we all suffer for it.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    Chip Jett: profit=zero
    Karina Jettrofit=zero
    Erick Lindgrenrofit=zero
    Layne Flackrofit=zero
    ahahaha Chip/Karina Jett are notorious for going busto, live and online.

    Lindgren is meh, he makes most of his money from staking other players and investments and Flack is just a spew-monkey in general which works less online because of the style of play.
  13. #13
    From cardschat . com

    I know a programmer who helped create the Poker Stars shuffle.According to him it is rigged as its a necessary evil from a business standpoint. Though not rigged for a specific individual the hands are rigged in a number of ways.First and foremost,80% of players on poker stars are bad poker players,the kind that call big bets on low percentage hands,or will even raise themselves on a bad hand.If it fell according to normal percentages the poker sharks would drain such players and drain them real quick.If a bad player was contstantly losing his butt he would get frustrated and not come back.If the 80% of bad players all left,so goes 80% of the sites profits with them.By rigging it to dish alot of bad river beats it gives bad players who should have folded out a more even playing field with the sharks who would have taken all their cash.Its not just about bad beats either.Your chip count matters especially in tournies.In a tourney if you have the highest stack in the hand being played its programmed for the come from behind beats on 4th or river 70% of the time if the higher calls the lows all in.You'll see it happen constantly a hand where a lower chips goes all in preflop with pocket aces and a high stacks calls with like a 4 and 5 off suit.Flop dishes a 3rd ace with king and ten,last two cards 2 and 3 to give it to the higher chip caller with the ace to 5 straight.By rigging it this way it puts the odds with higher chips regardless of who had the percentages to win but keeps it so in the long run all the low chip callers do get some hits to block the arguement its rigged.Thats the key is to rig it at a certain percentage this way a trend don't happen all the time,the low chips can still hit the high chip at 30% to quell any arguement that its plain out rigged for the high chip (which technically it is if its going to give it to him 70% of the time regardless of what high chips came in with).You'll also notice if you pay attention that the first 4 cards flopped are often two of two different suits to leave flush possibilities for multiple hands going into the river,and often these also have a straight draw potential in their to keep the max amount in the hand betting big.Many times that final river card in these situations will dish a flush but with a card that also gave another caller his straight.Its by design this is not a coincidence.The program is alot more complicated then people even realize.

    The endorsements of this site are paid for endorsements with the companies taking poker stars at their word of how the shuffle works,these companies didn't pay any programmer to comb through the program and actually see how the shuffle happens in reality.I asked the exact same question to him as people here ask,why would they risk rigging it if where people could figure it out and stop playing there.He said "Simply put,the general masses are really stupid and are willing to trust any business unless there is clear cut proof of rigging.As long as the low chips don't get bad beat every single hand they all in they can't claim its always rigged for high chips,as long as bad river fish don't win on the river everytime people can't say the rivers are rigged so thats why you rig it at a certain percentage so its not really able to be proven cause anyone can win the hand even if the percentages are fixed based on chip count and table action as opposed to the percentages based on the cards.He even told me of a time the program hit a glitch and all tournies for the day had to be shut down while they figured out what happened with the program.In dealing its usual drama hands to keep table action high in a tourney,the program miscalculated and threw a 5th ace.I actually looked it up on search engines to see if anyone ever spoke of this and found a screen shot of the tourney he was talking about http :// wtfpokerstars . ytmnd . com (remove spaces). They had to fine tune the program to make sure it didn't misread whats left in the deck again but the rigged drama flops remain in play,thats part was never altered.I asked him how they could get away with it if they were caught red handed,explanation "Well if people who saw it want an explanation its simple,tell them it was a hacker who compromised the shuffle and make the guy who got the five aces sign up with a new screen name and inform him if he talks about what happened in game rooms,specifically mentioning that the 5th ace came from poker stars end and not from some program he was using,he would be banned".

    So to sum it up they rig the site cause they know they can and its not just to make a few bucks,over the course of a year the way its programmed it generates them multi millions more in profits and its done in a way that can look questionable too many but can never really be proven.They bank on the majority trusting them unless actual positive proof can be shown its rigged (which it never can be unless a hacker got into their program and actually spelled it out for us exactly how the shuffle is working).If you read message boards all over the web you will see they made the right gamble cause the majority of people stick up for them and say "its not rigged,that would be stupid what could they gain from that?" The answer is they gain alot from that and by keeping it rigged specifically by a certain percentage to give the bad rivers and such,its kept so that the sharks can't take all the bad players money but at the same time the sharks will still get their own share of wins to keep everyone happy (or so they theorized).I play there myself,just the free money for fun and to watch to see if the trends he spoke of is true and the way the flops happen with alot of river beats,and specifically alot of higher chips players getting bailed out of low percentage hands on the river and it is very consistent with the system he explained to me.So you can all debate about if its rigged or not.I will go with the words of an actual creator of the shuffle.He had to sign a secrecy form on how the shuffle works so that the prgrammers can't speak publicly and compromise the sites integrity.I on the other hand am just a friend of his and signed nothing,just relaying what i heard to keep players informed and save them from having their money stolen from them *winks*
  14. #14
    Xianti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    the big stack next to you will call with 22 and flop a set or a flush
    Calling with 22 and flopping a flush??? WOW!
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Xianti
    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    the big stack next to you will call with 22 and flop a set or a flush
    Calling with 22 and flopping a flush??? WOW!
    Do i need to explain every single meaning of what i write or could you put your two neurons to work and understand that this was just an example? Do i need to add to that phrase the following:

    ..call with 22 or any two suited cards...

    Is it clear now?
    Happy now?
  16. #16
    Insider,

    Even if what you say is true, if it's rigged equally against all players, is it still rigged?
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Warpe
    Insider,

    Even if what you say is true, if it's rigged equally against all players, is it still rigged?
    Yes - that's exactly the point - it's rigged against all players so that no one can see a clear pattern -

    it's equally rigged against all players because only one stands to benefit - the dealer.

    I'd like to add the following taken from another forum - soory for the long post but it's worth a read

    * The Argument FOR Online Abuse *

    The shame of this whole deal is that the online poker sites could, if they wanted, end all of this speculation. However, they have elected not to do this. They have the power, if they really wanted, to put an end to any speculation about the legitimacy of the online gaming experience. And let’s be very honest – most of the top B&M players that I know are skeptical of the online poker sites and will not play their with their own money. This includes some of the very best players around. These are not people who are being paid to shill for online sites (and even those do not play with their own money – they play their minimum appearance tourneys with house money).

    I think I have heard all of the arguments AGAINST online rigging. There are basically 8 that I count. Let’s list them and review them. Here they are – the 8 reasons people give you why online poker isn’t rigged – let’s list them and take a critical look at them and see which of them, if any, hold any water. Basically, here’s the list:

    1) The Loser
    2) Mission Impossible
    3) The Public Company
    4) Nothing to be Gained
    5) So Much to Lose
    6) The Black Box
    7) More Hands = More Goofy Shit
    8) The Leap of Faith

    Of these, as you will see, after putting these under a microscope, only #8 holds any water.

    1) THE LOSER – it goes something like this: “you’re just a sore loser and if you were winning you wouldn’t say this.” Frankly, I’m not, but really it doesn’t really make any difference. I have quite a few final table appearances to my credit in $1,000 or higher buy-in national/international events including WPT and WSOP. My total deposits to online poker rooms are less than 1/1,000,000 of my net worth, so even if I lost every single hand, it would be irrelevant. Just because I am willing to take a look at it or have a skeptical outlook, doesn’t mean I’m a loser.
    2) MISSION IMPOSSIBLE – this defense tries to convince you that fixing a poker program would be the equivalent of splitting atoms. This is a poker program – we aren’t enriching uranium! I’m not a computer programmer, but I know quite a few, including a couple who specialize in computer games. They assure me that making something happen in a poker program is basically programming 101. If they wanted 3-8 off to beat AA every time, this would be easily done in the context of a program without adjusting the output of a random number generator.
    3) THE PUBLIC COMPANY – this is a relatively new one that seems to have popped up as though it has been fed to the masses like some kind of mantra. It ranks very high up on the laugh meter. The way this goes is that by telling you that the poker site is owned by or run by, or somehow connected to a publicly traded company in England or somewhere on some stock exchange, that this somehow is some indicia of honesty. Somehow we are supposed to believe that association with a publicly traded company means there is less chance of dishonesty. Unless you’ve been living in a cave for the last 20 years or are too young to know the difference, you should understand that having something to do with a public company doesn’t mean anything. In fact, the argument can be made that it is more likely to be a sham, rather than less. Does the word ENRON ring a bell? Publicly traded. Auditors said everything was okay. Massive fraud. The whole company was a huge fraud. How about Fannie Mae? This is actually a pseudo-governmental agency which trades as a publicly traded company. 4 years of bogus financial statements, all okayed by the auditors. More fraud. I could go on and on with a litany of literally thousands of public companies who have either been convicted of fraud or who have settled before being convicted. Case closed
    4) NOTHING TO BE GAINED – here’s some of the meat of the anti-rig arguments. Basically, they whine something like “why would they ever want to do that? What would they ever have to gain by doing it?” Ummmmm. Let me take one guess. Ummmmm….. MORE MONEY? Actually, they have nothing to gain by determining outcomes ahead of time, and from what I hear, they don’t. But they do have much to gain from doing one thing. Lets for the sake of simplicity divide players into 2 groups. Winners and losers. Money flows from the hands of the weak to the hands of the strong. It doesn’t do this in a straight line. And it doesn’t go directly from the weakest to the strongest. It goes in a chain much like the food chain in an ocean. It goes in and out like the tide, moving in one direction, then another, then back.. and so on and so on, like the tide. Then it moves from one level to the next that way, and from that level to the next higher level in that same way. The online casinos know the same thing that land based casinos know with their slots. It is this: in any exchange among groups, the slower the rate of loss, the greater the chance that they will get additional fresh money put into the system when someone taps out. Same with slots. They’ve tested it. They can have machines that have the same exact payout %. One is a high-volatility machine (less number of pays, average pay higher) and the other are low-volatility machines which give lesser payouts, but more frequently. The end result is the same because the payout % for a machine is fixed in the factory. The players who play the lower volatility machine are much more likely to put more money in because they feel like they have gotten more play for their money. It’s the same with online poker. The sites know that if they can slow up the rate of loss, these same players will eventually lose, but they will be ensuring a much higher rate of additional deposits. How do they do this? By creating situations where the chances of various hands winning versus each other are much closer to 50-50 then the true odds should be. That’s all. It’s that simple. Nothing with marking your account after you withdraw or targeting you. No conspiracy. No flops that are arranged in order to increase the rake. No nothing. The fish like it, cuz they loser slower. The sharks like it cuz it means ultimately that more fresh money is going to come into the system and work it’s way up the food chain. So, when all is said and done, they have plenty to gain from “adjusting” the process to suit their needs.
    5) SO MUCH TO LOSE – goes like this. “Why would they risk their business by doing this? Why would they risk losing customers? They have so much to lose. Why kill the golden goose?” Etc. Well, really what do they have to lose. Customers? I think not. After all, how many customers did the cigarette companies lose when they decided to print on the side of the packs “hey dooshbag – thanks for paying us for killing you!”? Answer – none. Not a single person on the whole planet every stopped smoking because of the death warning on the pack. Why not? Because the vast majority of their customers didn’t have a choice – THEY WERE ADICTED TO THE PRODUCT. And I know whoever you are that is reading this, I’m sure I’m not talking to you – I’m talking to some other guy. The same goes for online poker players. The vast majorities of them are to some degree, addicted and will not stop until they lose all their money and run out of credit. Gambling is an addiction. The online sites know this, and so they know that basically you aren’t going anywhere because YOU’RE HOOKED (not you, the other guy next to you).

    What else do they have to lose? Nothing. You can’t sue them. You have no recourse whatsoever. They are completely unregulated and report to nobody and can do whatever they please. So basically, they have NO DOWNSIDE to doing anything that they feel increases their business.

    6) THE BLACK BOX – different variations of this. One aspect of this is that “the random number generator has been certified by some accounting firm.” Bullshit. Double Bullshit and MORE BULLSHIT. There are no generally accepted accounting standards for measuring random number generators. Also, as we have learned unfortunately in the world of corporate audits – the fact that a public accounting firm says its okay doesn’t mean shit. Also, just because the random number generator is working right, it does not mean that the entire gaming engine is on the level. The RNG is only one part of a much larger program. It’s presentation of cards to the tables and related matters that count. There were several very notable examples in the world of computer backgammon where a site which published its dice stats showing that the RNG was good – but evidence was presented indicating that allocation of dice to tables was flawed.

    The other black box aspect is that “well, in a casino you can see the cards so you don’t blame the cards – just because it’s a computer, you are complaining that it’s rigged.’ There’s a lot of truth to this. There really is nothing you can say directly against this because what they are describing is basic human nature – not wanting to take responsibility and finding a scapegoat. But I think this is where the online sites let the cat out of the bag and show that they have no desire or intention of squelching the skeptics, perhaps because they cannot. The simple solution here is to allow your entire gaming engine top to bottom examined and certified by a completely independent outside authority ( not your own self-created paid dues-club either). There are a small number of sites who have done this. Please note that just because it was done once doesn’t mean that they couldn’t have changed the programming later, but at least they had something like that done at some time, and we have to give those sites at least the benefit of some doubt. After all, what are they supposed to do, have their entire program audited every day? That would be akin to asking a baseball player to pee into a bottle before every at bat. But the vast majority of the well known poker sites have NOT completed such a procedure at any time and, from what I hear, have no interest in doing so. A few started such a process, but aborted. Hmmmm. It would appear that if squelching the skeptics was as easy as this, why wouldn’t the sites all gladly line up to do it? Do they have something to hide? Sounds like they are doing the cyber equivalent of “taking the fifth”. What goes through your mind when you hear someone say “I refuse to testify on the grounds that I might incriminate myself!”? I know what goes through my mind when I hear that – GUILTY, that’s what!

    And all this nonsense about making online poker legal and regulated?? Whose idea is this? Not the poker sites, that for sure. None of them have any interest whatsoever in having their industry regulated. Among the reasons why is clearly this topic. Having online poker regulated would in fact force them to have legit games. If you are old enough to remember the pre-corporate Vegas or know much about the history of the town, then you know that there was indeed a time when the place was run by guys like Don Corleone and illegitimate games were quite common. Of course today, the city is regulated and all the machines, table games, etc all have to be on the up and up. The online poker world is still like Vegas in the 50’s and 60’s. They have NO DESIRE to change this unless they are absolutely forced to.

    You know all these letters that people are being encouraged to write to your senators and congressmen? These letters propose that they make online poker legal and regulate it like other industries? Personally, regardless of what side of the political isle you reside on, I encourage you to write your senators and congressmen. But if you are going to do it, do it about something important. Might I suggest topics such as illegal immigration and border security, terrorism, global warming and alternative energy, the war in Iraq. But please don’t bother them with online dooshbag poker, okay? They should be spending their time and my tax dollars on something important. But I digress. Where was I? Oh yeah, the letters. Ya notice who is encouraging us to write these letters asking for regulation of the online poker? The dooshbags at Pocket Fives . com, that’s who. Did you get any letter from Ultimate Bet asking you to write your congressmen asking for regulation?? Did you get one from Pokerstars? How bout Full Tilt? Paradise? Not me. I didn’t receive a single request from any of those sites encouraging me to lobby on behalf of online poker for regulation. Why the hell not? I mean, you would think that if the sites actually wanted that, they have all our email addresses – you would think that if they wanted that outcome, they would be encouraging us directly. Sound strange that they don’t seem that interested in the idea?? Sure does. Let me suggest that perhaps… just perhaps… you aren’t hearing from them BECAUSE THEY DON’T FRIGGIN WANT IT because they don’t want to be forced to change their programming and run completely legit games. Just some food for thought.

    7) MORE HANDS = MORE GOOFY SHIT – this is the canned nonsense that you get from the girl at customer service when you send an email like one of the following:

    Dear Customer Support: Something appears to be wrong. We just played 9 hands on our table and in all 9 hands, we had someone with AA and KK for 9 straight hands. Are you sure this is right?”

    Or,

    Dear Customer Support: Attached is a transcript of hand #645362836453829623 in NL holdem. As you can see, the starting cards for the players were AA, AK, AK, KK, QQ, QQ, JJ & JJ. I’ve been playing poker in casinos since 1981 and I’ve never seen this before. Are you sure this is okay??

    Or,
    Dear Customer Support: I’ve been playing at this table for 15 minutes. We just played 13 straight hands where a 4-flush came up on the board. Is this normal?

    Or,
    Dear Customer Support: I’ve been playing at your sight for over a month now. I’ve flopped quads 4 times and lost all 4 hands. Can you explain this?

    Usually, you get this canned response saying that because you are seeing more hands and there are more people calling, these are expected. Lobotomy anyone???

    8) LEAP OF FAITH – I guess “Some Dude” is on target here. In the end, this is what it’s all about. It’s all what you think it is.

    Here’s how I see it. It appears that there is more than ample motive for them to run an “enhanced” game. All of the common retorts that they use to defend and pooh-pooh naysayers are easily shot down. In the face of such possibilities, the ones with the power to prove the legitimacy refuse to take those steps so, if you want to belief in the legitimacy of online poker rooms, you are left with one reason and one reason only – the leap of faith. “Trust us”
  18. #18
    if it's as bad as you claim it is, how do winning players continue to win? not just like, barely beating the rake. i mean killing it. if the games are designed to keep bad players alive, then naturally that means the good players' win-rates will be diminished, and people won't be able to earn enough playing poker to make it worthwhile.
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by eugmac
    if it's as bad as you claim it is, how do winning players continue to win? not just like, barely beating the rake. i mean killing it. if the games are designed to keep bad players alive, then naturally that means the good players' win-rates will be diminished, and people won't be able to earn enough playing poker to make it worthwhile.
    Winning players win big money at live events like the WSOP
    They grew up in brick and mortar games and played BM all their life
    Hellmuth, Chan, Brunson - did they become great players online?

    Annette_15 is just an outlier - anyway she has moved to B & M tournaments.

    All the pros you see at sites like full tilt are just paid to appear there, they don't play poker for a living there because they know the odds are against them at online poker. Just check their stats online - they dont make a dime - how come? they're pros after all...
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    blah blah
    OMG, all this energy spent to such a useless purpose. And so wrong too. Wow, just wow.
    Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by EricE
    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    blah blah
    OMG, all this energy spent to such a useless purpose. And so wrong too. Wow, just wow.
    When a finger points to the moon, the imbecile looks at the finger
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  22. #22

    Default Interesting reading

    Nope this isn't my buddy. He's never been a computer programmer. And if he says he can cheat in an easier way then why isn't he. Like he said money is what makes the world go round.
  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    2. I could cheat an easier way if i wanted to - like the guy at absolute did
    This intrigues me. Absolute has stated that their system was compromised from the inside (an employee), and that what was done could not have been done from the outside. But you're suggesting, since you're no longer employed at a poker room, that you would still be able to "cheat" now, from the outside? How so?
  24. #24
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    @PokerInsider:
    Hmmm ... I see what you are saying. If this is true, it would mean that it would be more difficult that it should be to win money. Is this a problem? I would say for those that leave from poker, yes that would be, but even so they might still earn more playing 8-tabling 200NL online then 1-table 1000NL Live in a casino.

    Concerning, the beats of the river cards, I guess that everyone that starts playing poker feels at certain point that sites are rigged seeing sometimes some flops, turns or river cards. However, I feel that there is a way to check whether a site is rigged. If you use a tool like PokerEV and you check your all-in real wins against expected wins you should break even at the long run (it doesn't mean that at a certain moment you could be losing more then you expect or win less). In my PT DB I have around 75k hands and I'm losing about $-100 (Winning at Party, losing at PS and Everest). Someone that has huge amount of hands at PS (for exmaple) could run the same and check it. In the long run, it should be close to break-even.

    Just to finish, I just had a nice funny situation in a home game (I was dealing the cards and I did not cheated). I was all-in against a friend. I had 42o and he had 66, the flop was A5J the turn was 9 and the river was ... well you know which card it was, no? Of course a 3! Damm it!! Home games are also rigged
  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy44
    @PokerInsider:
    Hmmm ... I see what you are saying. If this is true, it would mean that it would be more difficult that it should be to win money. Is this a problem? I would say for those that leave from poker, yes that would be, but even so they might still earn more playing 8-tabling 200NL online then 1-table 1000NL Live in a casino.

    Concerning, the beats of the river cards, I guess that everyone that starts playing poker feels at certain point that sites are rigged seeing sometimes some flops, turns or river cards. However, I feel that there is a way to check whether a site is rigged. If you use a tool like PokerEV and you check your all-in real wins against expected wins you should break even at the long run (it doesn't mean that at a certain moment you could be losing more then you expect or win less). In my PT DB I have around 75k hands and I'm losing about $-100 (Winning at Party, losing at PS and Everest). Someone that has huge amount of hands at PS (for exmaple) could run the same and check it. In the long run, it should be close to break-even.

    Just to finish, I just had a nice funny situation in a home game (I was dealing the cards and I did not cheated). I was all-in against a friend. I had 42o and he had 66, the flop was A5J the turn was 9 and the river was ... well you know which card it was, no? Of course a 3! Damm it!! Home games are also rigged
    Thank you for your polite post;

    1. I don't need tools to assess whether a site is rigged or not - i know for sure they are since i've been programming some of the code at one of the rooms and all the other rooms behave more or less the same

    2. I'm not saying that it's rigged so that you lose your money to the house because playing poker you dont lose to the house but to other players - i repeat - what the house does, and here comes the rigging, is expedite tournaments and ring games so that more money is circling and they get a bigger slash of it all, be it in the form of rakes or tournament buy-ins

    Most of the rigging is not in the hole cards but in the way the engine manipulates the flop, turn and river, according to the betting, the chip stacks and the hole cards of the callers- that's why hole card distributions look ok most of the time in your pockertracker stats.

    But if you pay attention, when in a tourney a short stack goes all-in preflop and gets called by a larger stack, the outcome of the hand, about 70% of the time, will be that the short stack will be kicked off the tournament, no matter what the odds before the flop were because the flop the turn or the river magically make the bigger stack a better hand.

    But the big stacks can't exploit this pattern all the time because 30% of the time they will lose to the short stack that raised with KK preflop and their Ax won't be matched by any A on the board.

    So maybe now you see how subtle the trick is, but in the end it works and gets an overall bigger flow of money in the room which translates in more profits - this is what the rigging is all about - your odds of completing your hand or winning with your big pocket pairs are not the ones you'd expect and so this is not a fair game.

    I hope i made my point clear now.
  26. #26
    so here is a question. You are spending a huge amount of time trying to support your claim that online poker is subtly rigged.

    Why? Are you expecting a mass exodus from online poker because of your claims?

    Secondly, I am sure you are not the first programmer to leave a poker site. Why has no one else made these claims?
    Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
  27. #27
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    I like that OP wrote that he wasn't a computer programmer in a few posts above, but he "knew a couple"

    I stopped reading riiiight about there.
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  28. #28
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    I believe PokerInsider was quoting someone else from other forums in the posts where he says "I'm not a programmer, but...."

    PokerInsider: Care to answer my query about your original point #2? I'm genuinely curious. As a non-employee and working from outside the company, would you still be able to cheat the system for personal profit? Would you be able to do it without an accomplice on the inside?
  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    But if you pay attention, when in a tourney a short stack goes all-in preflop and gets called by a larger stack, the outcome of the hand, about 70% of the time, will be that the short stack will be kicked off the tournament, no matter what the odds before the flop were because the flop the turn or the river magically make the bigger stack a better hand.
    This is the fishiest thing you've said so far. You're saying that to exploit this, the big stack should call a short stack's all-in with any two cards, because no matter what the hole cards are, the big stack has an automatic advantage. Everybody on FTR can go make a lot of money playing sit-n-goes thanks to this knowledge! FTR thanks you! Now we can happily call with 72o as long as we have the chip lead, with the expectation of being better than a 2:1 favourite!

    Anybody who has played tournaments should know that the reason the big stack tends to win is because the short stack is desperate, and is pushing all in very often with mediocre hands and hoping that nobody calls so that he can win the blinds. When the big stack DOES call him, the short stack often is going to be in really bad shape.

    But the big stacks can't exploit this pattern all the time because 30% of the time they will lose to the short stack that raised with KK preflop and their Ax won't be matched by any A on the board.
    If what you say is true, then YES you can indeed exploit this, every single time. Your specific hand example seems irrelevant, also.
  30. #30
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    Yes - that's exactly the point - it's rigged against all players so that no one can see a clear pattern -

    it's equally rigged against all players because only one stands to benefit - the dealer.
    Mother Fucking Gold. This is almost as good as luck odds.
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  32. #32
    I haven't played or posted in a few months since I've been really busy with a new job. I come back and read this. Funny.
    I started a new job so don't play much ATM, just FTP mini grind
  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warpe
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    Quote Originally Posted by Warpe
    Insider,

    Even if what you say is true, if it's rigged equally against all players, is it still rigged?
    Yes - that's exactly the point - it's rigged against all players so that no one can see a clear pattern -

    it's equally rigged against all players because only one stands to benefit - the dealer.

    I'd like to add the following taken from another forum - soory for the long post but it's worth a read

    * The Argument FOR Online Abuse *

    The shame of this whole deal is that the online poker sites could, if they wanted, end all of this speculation. However, they have elected not to do this. They have the power, if they really wanted, to put an end to any speculation about the legitimacy of the online gaming experience. And let’s be very honest – most of the top B&M players that I know are skeptical of the online poker sites and will not play their with their own money. This includes some of the very best players around. These are not people who are being paid to shill for online sites (and even those do not play with their own money – they play their minimum appearance tourneys with house money).

    I think I have heard all of the arguments AGAINST online rigging. There are basically 8 that I count. Let’s list them and review them. Here they are – the 8 reasons people give you why online poker isn’t rigged – let’s list them and take a critical look at them and see which of them, if any, hold any water. Basically, here’s the list:

    1) The Loser
    2) Mission Impossible
    3) The Public Company
    4) Nothing to be Gained
    5) So Much to Lose
    6) The Black Box
    7) More Hands = More Goofy Shit
    8) The Leap of Faith

    Of these, as you will see, after putting these under a microscope, only #8 holds any water.

    1) THE LOSER – it goes something like this: “you’re just a sore loser and if you were winning you wouldn’t say this.” Frankly, I’m not, but really it doesn’t really make any difference. I have quite a few final table appearances to my credit in $1,000 or higher buy-in national/international events including WPT and WSOP. My total deposits to online poker rooms are less than 1/1,000,000 of my net worth, so even if I lost every single hand, it would be irrelevant. Just because I am willing to take a look at it or have a skeptical outlook, doesn’t mean I’m a loser.
    2) MISSION IMPOSSIBLE – this defense tries to convince you that fixing a poker program would be the equivalent of splitting atoms. This is a poker program – we aren’t enriching uranium! I’m not a computer programmer, but I know quite a few, including a couple who specialize in computer games. They assure me that making something happen in a poker program is basically programming 101. If they wanted 3-8 off to beat AA every time, this would be easily done in the context of a program without adjusting the output of a random number generator.
    3) THE PUBLIC COMPANY – this is a relatively new one that seems to have popped up as though it has been fed to the masses like some kind of mantra. It ranks very high up on the laugh meter. The way this goes is that by telling you that the poker site is owned by or run by, or somehow connected to a publicly traded company in England or somewhere on some stock exchange, that this somehow is some indicia of honesty. Somehow we are supposed to believe that association with a publicly traded company means there is less chance of dishonesty. Unless you’ve been living in a cave for the last 20 years or are too young to know the difference, you should understand that having something to do with a public company doesn’t mean anything. In fact, the argument can be made that it is more likely to be a sham, rather than less. Does the word ENRON ring a bell? Publicly traded. Auditors said everything was okay. Massive fraud. The whole company was a huge fraud. How about Fannie Mae? This is actually a pseudo-governmental agency which trades as a publicly traded company. 4 years of bogus financial statements, all okayed by the auditors. More fraud. I could go on and on with a litany of literally thousands of public companies who have either been convicted of fraud or who have settled before being convicted. Case closed
    4) NOTHING TO BE GAINED – here’s some of the meat of the anti-rig arguments. Basically, they whine something like “why would they ever want to do that? What would they ever have to gain by doing it?” Ummmmm. Let me take one guess. Ummmmm….. MORE MONEY? Actually, they have nothing to gain by determining outcomes ahead of time, and from what I hear, they don’t. But they do have much to gain from doing one thing. Lets for the sake of simplicity divide players into 2 groups. Winners and losers. Money flows from the hands of the weak to the hands of the strong. It doesn’t do this in a straight line. And it doesn’t go directly from the weakest to the strongest. It goes in a chain much like the food chain in an ocean. It goes in and out like the tide, moving in one direction, then another, then back.. and so on and so on, like the tide. Then it moves from one level to the next that way, and from that level to the next higher level in that same way. The online casinos know the same thing that land based casinos know with their slots. It is this: in any exchange among groups, the slower the rate of loss, the greater the chance that they will get additional fresh money put into the system when someone taps out. Same with slots. They’ve tested it. They can have machines that have the same exact payout %. One is a high-volatility machine (less number of pays, average pay higher) and the other are low-volatility machines which give lesser payouts, but more frequently. The end result is the same because the payout % for a machine is fixed in the factory. The players who play the lower volatility machine are much more likely to put more money in because they feel like they have gotten more play for their money. It’s the same with online poker. The sites know that if they can slow up the rate of loss, these same players will eventually lose, but they will be ensuring a much higher rate of additional deposits. How do they do this? By creating situations where the chances of various hands winning versus each other are much closer to 50-50 then the true odds should be. That’s all. It’s that simple. Nothing with marking your account after you withdraw or targeting you. No conspiracy. No flops that are arranged in order to increase the rake. No nothing. The fish like it, cuz they loser slower. The sharks like it cuz it means ultimately that more fresh money is going to come into the system and work it’s way up the food chain. So, when all is said and done, they have plenty to gain from “adjusting” the process to suit their needs.
    5) SO MUCH TO LOSE – goes like this. “Why would they risk their business by doing this? Why would they risk losing customers? They have so much to lose. Why kill the golden goose?” Etc. Well, really what do they have to lose. Customers? I think not. After all, how many customers did the cigarette companies lose when they decided to print on the side of the packs “hey dooshbag – thanks for paying us for killing you!”? Answer – none. Not a single person on the whole planet every stopped smoking because of the death warning on the pack. Why not? Because the vast majority of their customers didn’t have a choice – THEY WERE ADICTED TO THE PRODUCT. And I know whoever you are that is reading this, I’m sure I’m not talking to you – I’m talking to some other guy. The same goes for online poker players. The vast majorities of them are to some degree, addicted and will not stop until they lose all their money and run out of credit. Gambling is an addiction. The online sites know this, and so they know that basically you aren’t going anywhere because YOU’RE HOOKED (not you, the other guy next to you).

    What else do they have to lose? Nothing. You can’t sue them. You have no recourse whatsoever. They are completely unregulated and report to nobody and can do whatever they please. So basically, they have NO DOWNSIDE to doing anything that they feel increases their business.

    6) THE BLACK BOX – different variations of this. One aspect of this is that “the random number generator has been certified by some accounting firm.” Bullshit. Double Bullshit and MORE BULLSHIT. There are no generally accepted accounting standards for measuring random number generators. Also, as we have learned unfortunately in the world of corporate audits – the fact that a public accounting firm says its okay doesn’t mean shit. Also, just because the random number generator is working right, it does not mean that the entire gaming engine is on the level. The RNG is only one part of a much larger program. It’s presentation of cards to the tables and related matters that count. There were several very notable examples in the world of computer backgammon where a site which published its dice stats showing that the RNG was good – but evidence was presented indicating that allocation of dice to tables was flawed.

    The other black box aspect is that “well, in a casino you can see the cards so you don’t blame the cards – just because it’s a computer, you are complaining that it’s rigged.’ There’s a lot of truth to this. There really is nothing you can say directly against this because what they are describing is basic human nature – not wanting to take responsibility and finding a scapegoat. But I think this is where the online sites let the cat out of the bag and show that they have no desire or intention of squelching the skeptics, perhaps because they cannot. The simple solution here is to allow your entire gaming engine top to bottom examined and certified by a completely independent outside authority ( not your own self-created paid dues-club either). There are a small number of sites who have done this. Please note that just because it was done once doesn’t mean that they couldn’t have changed the programming later, but at least they had something like that done at some time, and we have to give those sites at least the benefit of some doubt. After all, what are they supposed to do, have their entire program audited every day? That would be akin to asking a baseball player to pee into a bottle before every at bat. But the vast majority of the well known poker sites have NOT completed such a procedure at any time and, from what I hear, have no interest in doing so. A few started such a process, but aborted. Hmmmm. It would appear that if squelching the skeptics was as easy as this, why wouldn’t the sites all gladly line up to do it? Do they have something to hide? Sounds like they are doing the cyber equivalent of “taking the fifth”. What goes through your mind when you hear someone say “I refuse to testify on the grounds that I might incriminate myself!”? I know what goes through my mind when I hear that – GUILTY, that’s what!

    And all this nonsense about making online poker legal and regulated?? Whose idea is this? Not the poker sites, that for sure. None of them have any interest whatsoever in having their industry regulated. Among the reasons why is clearly this topic. Having online poker regulated would in fact force them to have legit games. If you are old enough to remember the pre-corporate Vegas or know much about the history of the town, then you know that there was indeed a time when the place was run by guys like Don Corleone and illegitimate games were quite common. Of course today, the city is regulated and all the machines, table games, etc all have to be on the up and up. The online poker world is still like Vegas in the 50’s and 60’s. They have NO DESIRE to change this unless they are absolutely forced to.

    You know all these letters that people are being encouraged to write to your senators and congressmen? These letters propose that they make online poker legal and regulate it like other industries? Personally, regardless of what side of the political isle you reside on, I encourage you to write your senators and congressmen. But if you are going to do it, do it about something important. Might I suggest topics such as illegal immigration and border security, terrorism, global warming and alternative energy, the war in Iraq. But please don’t bother them with online dooshbag poker, okay? They should be spending their time and my tax dollars on something important. But I digress. Where was I? Oh yeah, the letters. Ya notice who is encouraging us to write these letters asking for regulation of the online poker? The dooshbags at Pocket Fives . com, that’s who. Did you get any letter from Ultimate Bet asking you to write your congressmen asking for regulation?? Did you get one from Pokerstars? How bout Full Tilt? Paradise? Not me. I didn’t receive a single request from any of those sites encouraging me to lobby on behalf of online poker for regulation. Why the hell not? I mean, you would think that if the sites actually wanted that, they have all our email addresses – you would think that if they wanted that outcome, they would be encouraging us directly. Sound strange that they don’t seem that interested in the idea?? Sure does. Let me suggest that perhaps… just perhaps… you aren’t hearing from them BECAUSE THEY DON’T FRIGGIN WANT IT because they don’t want to be forced to change their programming and run completely legit games. Just some food for thought.

    7) MORE HANDS = MORE GOOFY SHIT – this is the canned nonsense that you get from the girl at customer service when you send an email like one of the following:

    Dear Customer Support: Something appears to be wrong. We just played 9 hands on our table and in all 9 hands, we had someone with AA and KK for 9 straight hands. Are you sure this is right?”

    Or,

    Dear Customer Support: Attached is a transcript of hand #645362836453829623 in NL holdem. As you can see, the starting cards for the players were AA, AK, AK, KK, QQ, QQ, JJ & JJ. I’ve been playing poker in casinos since 1981 and I’ve never seen this before. Are you sure this is okay??

    Or,
    Dear Customer Support: I’ve been playing at this table for 15 minutes. We just played 13 straight hands where a 4-flush came up on the board. Is this normal?

    Or,
    Dear Customer Support: I’ve been playing at your sight for over a month now. I’ve flopped quads 4 times and lost all 4 hands. Can you explain this?

    Usually, you get this canned response saying that because you are seeing more hands and there are more people calling, these are expected. Lobotomy anyone???

    8) LEAP OF FAITH – I guess “Some Dude” is on target here. In the end, this is what it’s all about. It’s all what you think it is.

    Here’s how I see it. It appears that there is more than ample motive for them to run an “enhanced” game. All of the common retorts that they use to defend and pooh-pooh naysayers are easily shot down. In the face of such possibilities, the ones with the power to prove the legitimacy refuse to take those steps so, if you want to belief in the legitimacy of online poker rooms, you are left with one reason and one reason only – the leap of faith. “Trust us”

    But how much did you lose?
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    Or,
    Dear Customer Support: I’ve been playing at your sight for over a month now. I’ve flopped quads 4 times and lost all 4 hands. Can you explain this?
    Man, you'd be so rich you wouldn't care
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

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  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by GatorJH
    so here is a question. You are spending a huge amount of time trying to support your claim that online poker is subtly rigged.

    Why? Are you expecting a mass exodus from online poker because of your claims?

    Secondly, I am sure you are not the first programmer to leave a poker site. Why has no one else made these claims?
    Huge amount of time? A few minutes a day while i'm on vacation? LOL

    1.No i dont't expect a mass exodus and whether it happens or not i have nothing to gain or lose

    2.If you scour through poker forums you'll find some claims here and there maybe reported like someone who is friends with a programmer, like the post i pasted here from another site. Besides that the total world population of poker site programmers is below 300 i guess and they all have a personal life and probably dont care posting into blogs because when they do you see the result: bashing
  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Xianti
    I believe PokerInsider was quoting someone else from other forums in the posts where he says "I'm not a programmer, but...."

    PokerInsider: Care to answer my query about your original point #2? I'm genuinely curious. As a non-employee and working from outside the company, would you still be able to cheat the system for personal profit? Would you be able to do it without an accomplice on the inside?
    1. You need to be root inside the poker server
    2. You would need someone acting as an accomplice at a table
    3. You risk being discovered
    4. You face jailtime and a huge fine

    From outside the company? well kids have forced the cia and nasa servers, so a skilled hacker/cracker can force the firewall and security and get access to the server but it still will be of no avail since you cant play at tables being logged in as root

    it would be much easier to extract credit card numbers from the server
  38. #38
    PokerInsider, you must be bored.
  39. #39
    I hope it stays rigged, because I make a lot of $$$.

    Also, the image is a fake. The tournament was never cancelled, and Big Devin was never in it. The five aces never happened.

    Don't hate us because we're better at poker than you. You just don't have the capacity to think on a high level.
    It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
    Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Rondavu
    I hope it stays rigged, because I make a lot of $$$.
    Good for you

    Quote Originally Posted by Rondavu
    Also, the image is a fake. The tournament was never cancelled, and Big Devin was never in it. The five aces never happened.
    That was not my post and even if the image was a fake, i agree with the rest he said

    Quote Originally Posted by Rondavu
    Don't hate us because we're better at poker than you. You just don't have the capacity to think on a high level.
    I seldom play poker online, once a week as a pastime, mostly freerolls and low stakes SNG, so i couldn't care less about my poker skills -
    I'm a software engineer, i got my bachelor degree from the TKK Helsinki University of technology and completed a master in software engineering at the Blekinge Institute of Technology in Sweden and i have serious doubts, given the depth of your post, that i don't have the capacity to think at your level
  41. #41
    We don't care if it's rigged, because it can be beaten, and we are beating it. What portion of the information you have is detrimental to our goal as poker players?
    It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
    Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Rondavu
    We don't care if it's rigged, because it can be beaten, and we are beating it. What portion of the information you have is detrimental to our goal as poker players?
    The portion where i state that in the end that the odds you get are not the odds you would get in a b&m game and the average player is more likely to suffer bad beats in certain circumtances playing online more often that you'd think.

    My message is not to the poker professional or the experienced amateur, like you claim to be, that constantly is profitable, but is directed to the newbie, the occasional player or the addicted one, that think that by playing poker online they can make money just following the tips of the pros or by calculating odds with their poker tools - poker online isn't much different from a casino even though they'd like you to think it's a different story. The service provider's goal is to keep players playing and have more coming and will use all sort of more or less subtle tricks to make it go their way, especially tampering with the odds so that the fish, which is the core or their business, is lured in beleiving they can beat the tight players. It happens once in a while because of the rigging, so the fish keeps on calling with his Q9 offsuit because he knows that at times he'll be flopped AT8 and be reraised by the good player that raised AA preflop, with a chance of getting his money at the turn or river if a K or 7 comes down.

    People keeps on playing in casinos because they know that if they get lucky they win big money - would you play at a slot machine if you knew you'd have to perform complicate statistical calculations in order to win or if you knew the guy waiting behind you is more skilled at the slot and has a bigger chance of taking the money you are putting in?

    Poker room's goal is to turn a game base on pot odds, skills and opponent profiling more into a game of luck, so that the fish, which comprises 80% of their business, has almost equal odds as the good players, and rigging accomplishes exactly this.

    I have said what i wanted to say and would like to end this thread here.
  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    My message is not to the poker professional or the experienced amateur, but directed to the newbie, the occasional player or the addicted one, that think that by playing poker online they can make money just following the tips of the pros or by calculating odds with their Poker Tools
    They can, and do everyday. This forum is filled with them. Nice having you.
    It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
    Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
  44. #44
    I love the poker hand examples. they are awesome.

    So, was I chosen for some special reason to not suffer the horrible consequences mentioned here. a couple of years ago all I was doing was playing freerolls, and I sucked at poker. Now after slowly (oh so slowly) working my way up I have a decent amount of money (for my standards) to play with and a small amount of ability.

    I was the newbie that you are warning to stay away because it is rigged.


    "People keeps on playing in casinos because they know that if they get lucky they win big money"


    This is probably the only true thing that you have said. luckily for us, poker has that element built into it. every now and then a bad player will beat the pros (Moneymaker, for eg.). It's what already keeps them coming back. no tinkering is needed. Your AK is only a small favourite over their 67, so when they do decide to push it in preflop, it will beat you a fair number of times. It happens just as often in a live game as in online. My aces actually got cracked last time I was at my local casino. that doesn't mean it is rigged.

    two last things, who do you think makes more money for a poker site, the dumbass who deposits 200 and then blows it all playing at the $200 table, or the guy who consistently plays at the highest stakes available on the site? I would bet that it would take a hell of a lot of $200 fish who are only going to play at most a few hundred hands to replace a single high stakes player in terms of rake generated.

    and finally, you do know that the rake is capped at a certain point right. the room doesnt just keep taking more and more as the pot grows higher. so, rather than have it always AA vs KK pf, wouldn't it be better for the room to give two people mediocre hands, hands that are just enough to max out the rake and nothing more? especially when dealing with fish. you would want them around for as long as possible to be playing in pots that just barely cross the threshold for max rake. that way more of their measly $200 gets paid in rake and the room makes more money.

    I hope that will end this now.
    "If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by pgil
    I love the poker hand examples. they are awesome.

    So, was I chosen for some special reason to not suffer the horrible consequences mentioned here. a couple of years ago all I was doing was playing freerolls, and I sucked at poker. Now after slowly (oh so slowly) working my way up I have a decent amount of money (for my standards) to play with and a small amount of ability.

    I was the newbie that you are warning to stay away because it is rigged.
    Happy for you that you made it but for every newbie that makes it there are a hundred out there that lose a lot of their money

    Quote Originally Posted by pgil
    "People keeps on playing in casinos because they know that if they get lucky they win big money"


    This is probably the only true thing that you have said. luckily for us, poker has that element built into it. every now and then a bad player will beat the pros (Moneymaker, for eg.). It's what already keeps them coming back. no tinkering is needed.
    Tinkering is needed because it keeps more bad players coming than it would be otherwise - so your "every now and then" happens more often online

    Quote Originally Posted by pgil
    Your AK is only a small favourite over their 67, so when they do decide to push it in preflop, it will beat you a fair number of times. It happens just as often in a live game as in online.
    That's not true - it happens more often online - that's the point i'm stressing here

    Quote Originally Posted by pgil
    My aces actually got cracked last time I was at my local casino. that doesn't mean it is rigged.
    You could spare me this because obviously i know it happens and it has nothing to do with what i'm saying

    Quote Originally Posted by pgil
    two last things, who do you think makes more money for a poker site, the dumbass who deposits 200 and then blows it all playing at the $200 table, or the guy who consistently plays at the highest stakes available on the site? I would bet that it would take a hell of a lot of $200 fish who are only going to play at most a few hundred hands to replace a single high stakes player in terms of rake generated.
    Do you think that Dell Computers makes more money from selling a million cheap dekstops a year for $ 500 each or from selling a thousand mega computers a year at $ 20,000 each?

    Do you think that Exxon Mobil makes more money a year from selling fuel to the average driver or from selling premium avio fuel to Continental Airlines?

    I wish you could see the balance sheets of online poker rooms at the end of day - you would then be aware, like i already said, that low stakes player make for at least 70% of revenue for a poker site. The overall volume of money collected in rakes and buyins at low to mid levels is at least 10 times that from high stakes at the end of day

    Quote Originally Posted by pgil
    and finally, you do know that the rake is capped at a certain point right. the room doesnt just keep taking more and more as the pot grows higher. so, rather than have it always AA vs KK pf, wouldn't it be better for the room to give two people mediocre hands, hands that are just enough to max out the rake and nothing more? especially when dealing with fish. you would want them around for as long as possible to be playing in pots that just barely cross the threshold for max rake. that way more of their measly $200 gets paid in rake and the room makes more money.

    I hope that will end this now.
    Can't you read between the lines? I didnt say that it is ALWAYS AA vs KK preflop - besides, by delivering premium hands more often, people think their hand is the nuts and thus tends to put more money/chips in the pot which translates into more rakes/faster tournaments.

    Rigging accomplishes 3 goals

    1. Make the fish beleive they are at level with the good players
    2.Make tourneys finish faster
    3.Make pots get bigger in ring games
  46. #46
    PokerInsider, can you respond to my post re: taking advantage of the alleged rigging? If the big stack is aware of the cards being more likely to fall in his favour, wouldn't this be extremely easy to take advantage of? All he'd have to do is make looser pre-flop calls.

    Also, why would anybody who is on holiday in Italy be wasting it indoors making "whistle-blower" posts on a poker forum? I guess you've been having a very rainy holiday?
  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by eugmac
    PokerInsider, can you respond to my post re: taking advantage of the alleged rigging? If the big stack is aware of the cards being more likely to fall in his favour, wouldn't this be extremely easy to take advantage of? All he'd have to do is make looser pre-flop calls.
    In fact some are aware of this and play a looser game as a big stack and you'll notice how often they will "magically" take off the table a short stack thanks to a miracle river card - THIS IS THE TRICK THE SYSTEM USES TO MAKE TOURNEYS FINISH FASTER - but as i said (and this is the 3rd time i repeat it) it IS NOT ALWAYS like that so the big stack can't be 100% sure that the short stack that went all-in preflop will get busted, so yes, on a sample of 1000 hands from 1000 tourneys you'll notice the pattern 70%/30% (these numbers are just examples it can be 60/40) in favor of the big stack but from a single standpoint you can't be 100% sure you will win this specific hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by eugmac
    Also, why would anybody who is on holiday in Italy be wasting it indoors making "whistle-blower" posts on a poker forum? I guess you've been having a very rainy holiday?
    Now i am required to justify why i'm at home while on vacation to be more credible? Ok - i'm on Lake Como visiting my cousin and her husband; she lives and works here in the tourism business and i'm home these days because 1)it's been raining 2)i caught a cold and don't feel like going out so while they're away i pass time on the web and decided to post here

    Happy now?
  48. #48
    one of my points is that there is no need to make ring game pots bigger. they will max out the rake almost every time once you get to a suitable level.

    do you really think that all of the low-mid stakes rake is generated by fish/non-regs? I would wager that most of it is at least in part due to the regs. especially when they can play 18 tables at once. you get a few of them doing that and you have yourself a lot of rake generated. when you have 3-4 regs per table (at least), and a few semi-regulars in a 9 player table, there aren't that many seats available. do you really think that the 3 seats left for the fish make up 70% of the rooms TOTAL rake. especially when the fish are playing low stakes? Even if most of the rake is coming from the medium-low stakes (which would make sense due to the higher volume of hands being played), most of it is not due to one-time players.

    with all of the tracking software out there, and all of the huge databases that are being looked at in every possible way (poker players seem to be made up of a lot of math nerds who love looking at those things), there is no way that something this pervasive is going on without being caught. the numers are evening out over larger samples. you are flopping a flush draw the correct number of times, you are also missing that flush the proper number of times over the long run.

    also, since when do programmers get to look at balance sheets?


    do you think that my bank makes more from all of their personal accounts, or from their huge corporate accounts? do you think exxon mobil makes more from selling you and me fuel than they do from supplying fuel (and a bunch of other related items) to industry? I sure as hell don't.

    we could do this another way: do you think the car companies make more from selling all of their small inexpensive cars each year or from selling fewer of their big luxury vehicles (SUV's, etc.)? it sure isn't the small cars. shall I go on?
    "If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
  49. #49
    So if everything you say is true, then wouldn't online poker simply become an alternate game to live which can be exploited through it's own unique set of variables? Even if it is weighted more towards rewarding bad play, wouldn't that point be moot if the good play is still rewarded handsomly with consistent excessive compensation?

    I'm failing to understand why your version of rigging (and let's assume it's true) would deter anyone from participation? Do you want me to be angry at the poker site for stimulating action for their own favor, if it doesn't hurt my chance at an excellent steady income?

    Quite simply, no matter what rigging or not rigging is actually going on. I still make money by outthinking my opponents. An opportunity my opponents are fairly offered themselves, if they so choose to take it.
    It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
    Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
  50. #50
    Well, if there are only about 300 programmers, and you are one of them, and you are actually for real, then you've probably managed to successfully out yourself.

    Seriously, how many Finnish programmers who went to xyz university and did a Masters at abc university and have a cousin at Lake Como who works in the tourism industry can there be?

    If you are for real, then I guess the lawyers will probably be in touch fairly soon, what with the NDA you almost certainly signed. We can be sure that the poker sites check out the forums on occasion. If you are fake, well, have fun with your silliness. I'm already spending too much energy on this topic just responding to your post.

    FWIW my 50K hands show no significant deviations from what would be expected in a 50K sample size. And if you know anything about statistics, 50K is a massive sample size. That would have to be the subtlest algorithm ever invented to fly under the radar of all the stats and math geeks with 500,000 hands.

    Seriously, it is right out in the open, and statistically speaking a microscopic, nanoscale tweaking margin would show up with a sample size that large.
  51. #51
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    This is fab - PI claims it's a warning to newbie players but then goes on to say that bad play is rewarded!! All we now need to know is the cut-off point at which disadvantage kicks in - is it when we're quite bad, when we're competent, when we're moderately skilled, or what? And at what point does the skilled player get his +EV back, because at some point his skill will outweigh the rigging!

    Also - what happens in games where there are few bad players? Does the software know that it can stop rigging the game? Or does it reward chasers rather than made hands?

    So, to conclude. Noobs should play cash games, where the odds are rigged in their favour, but good players should play MTTs, where the big stacks will luck out over the small stacks. See - if you follow PI's logic, then everyone can be a winner!
  52. #52
    It seems we're getting nowhere - i defend my position you defend yours

    For those interested in the argument, just check this thread which inspired me to post my little experience here

    IS ONLINE POKER RIGGED? AN INVESTIGATION
    http://www.cardschat.com/f13/online-...igation-70058/

    So farewell, this is my last post here

    Life is short - Live it up.
  53. #53
    I'm rich biatch
    It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
    Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    Quote Originally Posted by Xianti
    I believe PokerInsider was quoting someone else from other forums in the posts where he says "I'm not a programmer, but...."

    PokerInsider: Care to answer my query about your original point #2? I'm genuinely curious. As a non-employee and working from outside the company, would you still be able to cheat the system for personal profit? Would you be able to do it without an accomplice on the inside?
    1. You need to be root inside the poker server
    2. You would need someone acting as an accomplice at a table
    3. You risk being discovered
    4. You face jailtime and a huge fine

    From outside the company? well kids have forced the cia and nasa servers, so a skilled hacker/cracker can force the firewall and security and get access to the server but it still will be of no avail since you cant play at tables being logged in as root

    it would be much easier to extract credit card numbers from the server


    Nice. The credit card numbers I have at my payment processor (defo not on the site).

    You are good.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

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  55. #55
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider

    Rigging accomplishes 3 goals

    1. Make the fish beleive they are at level with the good players
    2.Make tourneys finish faster
    3.Make pots get bigger in ring games

    I like big pots and I cannot lie
    You other brothers can't deny
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  56. #56

    Default wooo

    Ahhhhahahahaha. Sir Lies Alot. Eskoooooo
  57. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    So farewell, this is my last post here
    I trust that you're a man of your word.
  58. #58
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    Well shit, this guy posted enough personal information to track him down...
    <Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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  59. #59
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    Personally I find your unfaltering trust in the integrity of online casinos amusing. I'm not saying anything about the believability of this particular guy one way or another, but seriously, if any of you think this kind of behavior is below them, I have a very nice bridge in London for sale.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  60. #60
    Hi, i joined FTR just to reply to this thread and give my 2 cents.

    I have played online for a couple of years now off and onand won around $10,000 from one ofthe major poker rooms. Also cashed around $2K from another and both times i started from zero and i only played cash games.

    First i'd like to point out, i'll play for like a month, stop for a few because the repetiveness to poker kills me and then i'll repeat. So overall iv'e won my money very quickly whenever iv'e had a bankroll to work with. So anyway here are my observations on online poker.

    1. I wouldn't say 80% of poker players are poor, i think the number is closer to like 95%, maybe even higher.

    2. I believe poker sites cap you on how much you can win on any one individual account.

    and thats it...... I have seen it time and time again after you win a bit and withdraw, no matter what i do, i'll keep running into bad situations with monster v monster but i'm smart enough to run and only take minimal losses when i see the situation changing against me. I shouldn't be complaining, i have won and i'm happy for that. I think a lot of people have lost insane amounts of money online, even most of the people on FTR no doubt so i'm not going to pay out the poker rooms when i'm a winner.

    I don't know why people attack the original poster. If he's right, it's a good thing him pointing it out and if he's wrong, have a laugh and move on, no?

    I think a few to many so called pros on here and other forums, reply on incentives from poker rooms to draw people in as they don't have the ability to make a dollar legally but then again prehaps a few of you play to a really high standard as well and are crushing the tables like a wrecking ball and don't want the fish driven away and i understand that too.

    In any case, i believe in karma and if some random joe is reading this take this with you.... My best advice to you is to run away very quickly. You more then likely don't have the ability to win long term to the point, the poker room wouldn't need to step in and rig it against you, you just plain suck. This would as i pointed out above, go towards 95% of players at a minimum. It's harsh but good advive in my opinion.

    Have a good day.
  61. #61
    Ban the last two douchebags please
  62. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Viscount Vic
    2. I believe poker sites cap you on how much you can win on any one individual account.
    Any way to find out what my cap is? This would be helpful so I would know when to quit.

    Thank you for your time,

    Your friend Meeloche.
  63. #63
    Cocco bill - wow, I was sad to see your post. Stealing 100% of the funds on a site is presumably not "below" them either, should we all withdrawl? Should I refuse to pay at McDonalds before I have the burgers in hand? Fucking two window system RIGGED

    it's awesome this thread is still going, we'll all make money forever, hooray
  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy
    Cocco bill - wow, I was sad to see your post. Stealing 100% of the funds on a site is presumably not "below" them either, should we all withdrawl? Should I refuse to pay at McDonalds before I have the burgers in hand? Fucking two window system RIGGED

    it's awesome this thread is still going, we'll all make money forever, hooray
    Wrong Coco_bill?
    (\__/)
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  65. #65
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    ya, wrong
  66. #66

    Default My Story

    ID like to comment on this. My name is matt. Little over 3 years .I started playing Poker. And in that time ive won over 20k . The last year i have stopped. Due to the poker ban.And something more sinster.

    IF i would win and cashout on a site. Then all sudden i couldnt get 50 cent. Without incurring horrible beats. And that be every other hand. This happen on various sites. And the degree of this is getting worse and more sinster.

    Ive had money stolen from me. Been told 50 lies. Seen my table flash while playing holdem. And The guy next to me playing omaha. In a supposed holdem game. And even far worse thigns. Reason my resond to this post. As i started investagate online poker. For my own piece of mind and a search for the truth. What ive found has been shocking. And is almost identical to what this guy posts. He may or may nt be who he says. Be he has some very hidden and almost identical conculsions in my study that ive found.

    The large chip stack ratio is real. And if its real. It destroys any credibility of a random deal. In my over million hands study or more. It is real and disturbing.

    I have noticed in past year of play.I still play just dont cash out. Mostly for study. And ive done this 8-10 hours a day.Most days. The code and program has gotten more sinster and more corrupt.

    They can cap you. I know this without a doubt. I had to change my name ip address, hard drive serial identity on 5 seperate occassions at least.

    Each time a miracle happens. I go back to strong winning ways. Against bad players .Till i cash to much. Then at some point. Bad beats , and a new corrupt code. Thats the most shocking of all so far. When my chips go all in. I lose no matter 9 out 10 times.No matter how strong i am.

    Pureplay poker is a good example of this. But so far ive not seen one. It just depends on when , its coming. There is obviously some code or somethign.Set if the site dont take or rake a certain amount. This keeps happening to you.

    Ive been threatned. Lied to . Told outrageous things.All by supposed good poker sites .

    As for the guy in this post. The programmer. One reason in my theory is. That more dont come foward. Is money being first. They are paid well.

    2. Confediality agreements.They all sign these. Ive questions 100s of live help people. And they stupidly admit. Or used to. They all have to sign these. And if they break them they face large penalites.
    3. Theres not alot of them.
    Now if i was one. I would come foward. Write a book and show evicence. And you wouldnt have to work for a company.

    But some may fear their lives. As corrupt poker sites.Mob and threats to there family or fear.

    I have lot more information. Ive though of release this public. I also have a system. A way to tell that a site is doign exactly what this guy says.

    Just goto your site. Start watching the stacks.Espically the larger ones. It becomes clear. That the site is using shills to do this very thing. Also a real player can also. In my honest opinion .IF i had a choice . which alot dont. I would never ever play online again. Other than practice. Theres alot more if anyone interested.
    Most sites hide these type of posts. ive had 1000 removed. And if im cheated by a site. They quickly remove my posts. And there affilates as well. Greed is at the fault of online poker. Online poker is in serious trouble.
  67. #67

    Default Re: My Story

    Quote Originally Posted by matt2222
    Each time a miracle happens. I go back to strong winning ways. Against bad players .Till i cash to much. Then at some point. Bad beats , and a new corrupt code. Thats the most shocking of all so far. When my chips go all in. I lose no matter 9 out 10 times.No matter how strong i am.
    I know exactly what you mean. I think poker has come up with a word for this.....oh yeah, fu'kn Variance! "Woot, my AAs got cracked 10 times in a row....waaaaaaaaah!"
  68. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by swiggidy
    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy
    Cocco bill - wow, I was sad to see your post. Stealing 100% of the funds on a site is presumably not "below" them either, should we all withdrawl? Should I refuse to pay at McDonalds before I have the burgers in hand? Fucking two window system RIGGED

    it's awesome this thread is still going, we'll all make money forever, hooray
    Wrong Coco_bill?
    no, this bill used to post sorta good in the SNG forum
  69. #69
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    Hey Matt, are you a Finnish software engineer?
  70. #70

    Default Please

    Im not a programmer at all. And for anyone that attacks or flames honest posts.

    It just shows 3 things.
    1. Stupidity
    2. Affilate or tie to a site in some manner.
    3. Inexpereince./ gullible

    I made the post from my own experiences.

    Online poker is infested with corrupt people. Crooks , thieves alot of convicted felons.
    Its your money waste and give it away.

    Theres 10 people a day.Sitting at video poker lounges at 8:00 in morning.

    Does this make it right? We all know that video poker is one bigges scams.

    All online poker has done.IS to get programers to use same type code on online poker.

    And its getting worse. There trully is no reason to play online.Less your so rich it doesnt matter.

    There are those that think video poker isnt rigged either.As onlien is.

    Yet google or you tube. The chips that go into this machines. To cheat people. This is a absurd arguemnt. Its not if its rigged anymore.Its how.

    And i got good idea how. And lot thigns this person posted. Are right on money from my expereicnes as well. Im from the Usa.

    The sad part all these. Is the total greed and sleezy people try make a killing of this new poker craze.

    Why not deal fair? Same reason people put chips in video poker.

    Cause people still stupid enough to do it. Even tho its a obvious scam. They prey upon weak. Addicted. Such good people they are.

    Poker online is beign exposed . Absoulte poker Ultimate bet.

    And i myself have seen things. pokerhost.,pureplay pacfic poker.
    These very same things .That have been caught at other sites.
    Microgaming. Give me a break.
    Poker is being ruined. There own greed is going be downfall.They never make what they could have .

    When and if usa makes it legal. And someone opens a cost effective real site. They will be in big trouble.
  71. #71
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    I'm $15k up. Does that make me a crook too?
  72. #72
    yawn
  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    Quote Originally Posted by EricE
    Quote Originally Posted by PokerInsider
    blah blah
    OMG, all this energy spent to such a useless purpose. And so wrong too. Wow, just wow.
    When a finger points to the moon, the imbecile looks at the finger
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    You lost all credibility with me right there. You destroyed that proverb.
    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes
  74. #74
    Just cause this thing is still going and I don't much feel like making a new thread, I'll present my argument against/paranoia towards online poker and make myself an object of ridicule briefly:

    It has nothing to do with rigging - many many players keep stats on their hands dealt over large samples, and anyway, even if it was rigged, all that would matter from a pragmatic standpoint is whether it's beatable.

    No, my problem applies only to those of us in the states. Do you guys feel entirely confident that your finances will not be investigated by the government? A lot of the financial transactions involved in online poker also may look suspiciously like money laundering and/or a tax dodge. And I don't have a lot of trust in the political climate in the US at the given moment.

    Am I being paranoid? I will say, those of us on Napster circa 1999 never expected being threatened with fines of up to $150,000 per song (no one paid that much, but still). And most of us playing online poker back in 2004 didn't really expect it to be outlawed in the states in the near future, but it was.
  75. #75
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy
    Cocco bill - wow, I was sad to see your post. Stealing 100% of the funds on a site is presumably not "below" them either, should we all withdrawl? Should I refuse to pay at McDonalds before I have the burgers in hand? Fucking two window system RIGGED
    I really don't see how this has anything to do with what I said and have to say I'm amazed at some of the responses. Sure this guy might be and probably is full of shit, but so what? Poker rooms are in the business of making money, and I would not be one bit surprised if some of the shadier ones "tweaked" their system to maximize their profits. Companies in other sectors, even reputable ones do all kinds of crap all the time (gray imports, tax evasion, child labor, knock offs, abuse dominant market positions, you name it), but poker rooms never would? I'm not advocating that "zOMG POKAR IS RIGGED" nor claiming I'm not winning because of it nor saying it can't be beaten and absolutely not telling anyone to withdraw or stop playing...actually I didn't say fuck all except not to blindly trust some random companies to absolutely positively 100% ever being in any way interested in maximizing their profits if they found a way to do it. Maybe that's just because I'm an IT security consultant and paranoia is my job.

    Like seriously wtf, I must be missing some huge issue here. Do you guys really think a) some posts on a forum will suddenly scare all the fish on the planet away, b) poker rooms are run by saints and they would never ever ever ever even think about doing anything unethical or c) do you all run poker rooms?

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