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Fnord
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08-03-2007, 08:08 PM
Post subject: One of the best articles ever written on online poker
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
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http://www.biggerdeal.com/2007/06/26...-online-poker/
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Thanks for posting.
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crazycrazy
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2007
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TYVM for link.
Basically this would be super for poker and finally then some serious poker can start excluding people who know how to take advantage of software, databases and shit like that...cos thats not poker.
If this happen and i wish it does i think the true poker players will have the best edge.
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As if that weren’t enough, there are a bunch of boorish fools who routinely use the published rankings to berate other players (either at the tables or in online poker forums). So this information is being used as ammunition by clueless idiots whose egos make them put down other players, at the cost of civility, the quality of the game, etc. Yet another reason to make the information go away.
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How true... poker is full of idiots like that.
Lee Jones rocks... 
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Geanosssss
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Nice article...except that I could hear Lee Jones' voice constantly in my head
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
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It's a decent idea, problem is, once you disable tools like PokerEdge, you've still got to find a way to disable table coaches, bad deposit options and many other things that are bad for the ecosystem.
The main tool which this article seems to be referring to (HUD) would still be pretty useful as it's not that regular to already have hands on a player, unless you're a dataminer type.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
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If the sites are advertised and the money transactions are simple, the fish will come.
Poker is hard. Much harder than anybody expects. I believe I am one of the best current regs at 200nl fullring, but if I jumped to 2knl, I would be the fish. If I moved to 6max or HU, I would be the fish. The time and effort I have put in thus far is a lot. The time and effort I will need to put in to achieve shark status at 2knl is a lot more.
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Xianti
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{moved from NLHE Strategies}
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Xianti
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Lee has a couple of great replies to some of the comments there as well.
I personally think it's a great idea.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
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lol @ the reply about switching tables every hand.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
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Its an interesting idea, but I think it would truly have little impact. The sharks will still run their huds on their current sessions, and within ~25 hands have a pretty accurate description of their opponents play styles. The fish will still be found, and the fish will still be filleted. NL hold'em is just not the best game for the longevity of poker. The skill disparity between "good" and "bad" is just massive.
Personally, I think sites should just stop giving hand histories altogether. They should provide their own tracking software which will show you your winrate, profit in $, VPIP, etc. Without showing that of your opponents.
I think thats the best chance.
It's not a coincidence that the fishiest sites to play on are the ones PT does *not* support.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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iF THEY JUST MAKE IT PLAYER 1-10 at each table it'll not make a difference who anyone is as you wont know. Thats about as good as it gets.
Certainly, the nits who use HUDs are killing the game for fish, stars has to be the example of that.
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crazycrazy
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 240
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the thing is this is good against building any software which collects ur patterns etc, bots... and people who make decisions alot on software/databases... i think poker should not be about that...why would someone should see his equity against ur range exactly in some spot in sng and stuff like that.
whatever to protect fish, good player will still make money from both fish and nits/bad regs.
i really like today state i dont want the common regs to get better and fish to die then it may get hard.
main thing is t o keep online poker popular.
i just hope that 5 yrs from now online poker will still be profitable like it is now, WILL IT BE ? WHAT U THINK?
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Fnord
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The problem isn't the edge gained by stats from the last few hundred or so hands from a single day. There isn't much of an information edge and probably less than one gained by an observant single tabler paying close attention because he would be able to put stuff in better perspective.
The problem is the edge people with thousands of hands on the regulars have and being able to quickly pick out new players at a given level via the process of elimination.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
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Eupho, excellent idea about not allowing HHs. That would be VERY good for the game.
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crazycrazy
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Eupho, excellent idea about not allowing HHs. That would be VERY good for the game.
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ye ye whatever... who's the girl from ur avatar ?
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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The problem is the edge people with thousands of hands on the regulars have and being able to quickly pick out new players at a given level via the process of elimination.
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Anyone you have thousands of hands on, you'll recognize by name anyway.
A big problem coming around now are "buddy list" services that charge $4/month for a big list of horrible players.
Things will change relatively soon, I'm pretty sure. Will poker still be around in 5 years? Of course. Will INTERNET poker? Ooh. Tough question.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
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The problem is the edge people with thousands of hands on the regulars have and being able to quickly pick out new players at a given level via the process of elimination.
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Anyone you have thousands of hands on, you'll recognize by name anyway.
A big problem coming around now are "buddy list" services that charge $4/month for a big list of horrible players.
Things will change relatively soon, I'm pretty sure. Will poker still be around in 5 years? Of course. Will INTERNET poker? Ooh. Tough question. |
if they bring back the US market: yes.
If the expected asian market booms: yes.
Otherwise no.
SNG's are the greatest example of how programs/stats are killing the game. You can make an ev calculation by clicking a button, that isntr poker to me. You should have to work it out, hence my dislike of players playing <100nl with huds active.
ban it, get the geeks to learn how to play or bust IMO.
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Jack Sawyer
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
ban it, get the geeks to learn how to play or bust IMO.
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very true.
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
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bode
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
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The problem is the edge people with thousands of hands on the regulars have and being able to quickly pick out new players at a given level via the process of elimination.
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Anyone you have thousands of hands on, you'll recognize by name anyway.
A big problem coming around now are "buddy list" services that charge $4/month for a big list of horrible players.
Things will change relatively soon, I'm pretty sure. Will poker still be around in 5 years? Of course. Will INTERNET poker? Ooh. Tough question. |
if they bring back the US market: yes.
If the expected asian market booms: yes.
Otherwise no.
SNG's are the greatest example of how programs/stats are killing the game. You can make an ev calculation by clicking a button, that isntr poker to me. You should have to work it out, hence my dislike of players playing <100nl with huds active.
ban it, get the geeks to learn how to play or bust IMO. |
i hear you preach this all the time. I fit this label, but i dont find myself using my HUD solely to make decisions. Yeah, if i see someone is a 9/6 4-betting pre, im going to dump my QQ, but its not like im basing every decision off some stat.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Eupho, excellent idea about not allowing HHs. That would be VERY good for the game.
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Wel, I fear that if we completely lose our HHs, we lose the ability to keep the sites honest. We'd have no defense against the "LOLR1GG3D" guys, because we just won't have people with 500k databases going "LOLDUMBASS" back at them.
I guess the player1 - player10 thing is a close compromise. Or maybe hand histories that don't include player names, so people get to keep their JoeSchmo1974 screename, but the sharks don't get to use their hud's. No... that won't work either. Just from the order of the action a program could figure out who is sitting where.
I don't know the answer.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
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Nobody cares about the rigged crowd. Absence of HHs would make online as close to live as we could get.
Online poker is going to be around forever. There's too much guesswork involved for software to eliminate it. Worse case scenario, it's much tougher, but that's all.
However, the US will return full swing, as well as Asia. The human will to gamble cannot be stifled, the cash cow/economic awesomeness will not go without be capitalized upon, and the only thing that will stop electronics pervading our lives is a crazy insane electromagnetic pulse.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Youre obscenely optimistic. Didn't we learn our lesson about obscene optimism when we swore the gaming legislation would NEVER pass?
Counting on the US market to "return full swing" is silly. I don't see the internet gaming act going anywhere anytime soon. There are a HUGE amount of people who fully believe playing poker online is illegal right now.
And counting on China to suddenly allow its citizens to gamble online is even MORE silly. These are the fuckwits that have managed to censor google searches!
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
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I never thought the UIGEA would never pass. I thought it would, actually. I also thought it would ultimately be good when it passed. The poker community has become and is becoming more involved due to it, and there's a much larger number of people who can make changes who are now on our side. The number is growing, as well.
I predict US legalization will happen within the next few years, and the same for China within the next few decades. The UIGEA is unenforcable and unprofitable, and that will likely be soon acknowledged. I believe there'll be a hearing on Sept. 4th on whether or not to scratch UIGEA. We could see things change for the better as early as then.
I am optomistic, and I believe logically so.
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salsa4ever
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
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i would advocate:
anonymous ID names
preserve hand histories
cut the rake by about 33%
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Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Old School
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Nobody cares about the rigged crowd.
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Very true, but people are needed to confirm that it isn't rigged. We can't just assume that the casino's are being good. There has to be proof, and also, people w/ 500k+ hands dbs are needed/ have a good role in to keep the rooms honest.
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
Quote:
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
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crazycrazy
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 240
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that US law is funny indeed and it'll go away (i saw on somewhere there are votes in 2008 in US ? if thats correct and if the other party gets in they may well cancel this bs).... other thing is how fast will common US players come back then. but big rooms will probably attack the market with ads completely as it opens, so that wont be a problem.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
cut the rake by about 33%
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The rake in Big Bet poker and Tournies is fine. Actually, they should seriously consider a rake increase in the higher stakes big bet games.
Limit games and higher buy-in SnGs could use a rake cut pretty badly to keep the marginal players from going busto.
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Warpe
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Lol, Fnord, way to mix Zappa lyrics.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Lol, Fnord, way to mix Zappa lyrics.
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It's KMFDM, Don't Blow Your Top.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Lol, Fnord, way to mix Zappa lyrics.
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It's KMFDM, Don't Blow Your Top. |
LOL. I thought you were leveling, but apparently they just ripped off Zappa.
If Gail hears about this it will be insta-lawsuit.
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Warpe
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Moderator
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Yeah, I recognized the lyrics right away...line 1 is from I'm The Slime, line 4 is a modification of a line from the same song, and line 3 is from Dirty Love. Both songs appear on Overnight Sensation, one of my favorite Zappa albums.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Time for a new sig I guess.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
cut the rake by about 33%
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The rake in Big Bet poker and Tournies is fine. Actually, they should seriously consider a rake increase in the higher stakes big bet games.
Limit games and higher buy-in SnGs could use a rake cut pretty badly to keep the marginal players from going busto. |
I have always believed it is the marginal players that feed the games more than the fish. Marginally losing players are more likely to keep pouring money in long-term as they get shorter and shorter, but truly believe theyre decent players, while marginally winning players will peter principle out, and redeposit.
Whereas at some point the true fish *will* give up.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Marginal players also feed the bigger games when they run good and move up.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Marginal players also feed the bigger games when they run good and move up.
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can i get a name better than 'Mr marginal'
Kthx.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Yeah, Small Winners sounds better. I think that's what I'll use in my book.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
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Yeah, I made a note about Townsend claiming that many of his fish were winners at lower stakes taking shots or losers on a good run. I have defintely noticed that the types of players I consider fishy regulars at my most current stake are the types that are the sharkier ones a stake or two lower.
I don't think the games could ever die. There's just waaaaaaay too much skill involved. I find it funny how on 2p2 the small stakes forums think the midstakes are super hard, and the midstakers thinks small stakes are super easy yet high stakes are super hard, and the same for high stakers.
So, if the games die, just get better. Or don't get better. I don't want more of a challenge than I already have.
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ackthecat
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: colorado
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Quote:
PostPosted: Sun, 05 Aug 2007, 3:16pm
Youre obscenely optimistic. Didn't we learn our lesson about obscene optimism when we swore the gaming legislation would NEVER pass?
Counting on the US market to "return full swing" is silly. I don't see the internet gaming act going anywhere anytime soon. There are a HUGE amount of people who fully believe playing poker online is illegal right now.
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Untill I started playing poker online a few months ago I wasnt aware that
the gaming regulations were so bad. Dosent surprise me, and dont get me started on this! Us citizens have no more rights. We as a whole just havent realized it yet.
I found funding an account a pain in the ass but still can. Our
government probably will not outlaw online gambling they will just wind up taking their "share of the
rake" so it will cost US players more than sharks and the rake take now.
As far as the software goes it dosent scare me too much because people do
unexpected things so its hard to predict exactly what they will do. At least
I do
It sure helped me understand the patterns to look for though. Helped me to understand what I was doing to. Would have figgured this out on my own anyway this just helped me start to get it a bit quicker.
Its actually easier to deposit money into the poker account than it is to deal with setting up all the software to collect data LOL.
Anyway those that are becoming dependent on the data will have a harder time adjusting to playing without for a short time so sharks that dont use it will still have an edge if its banned. Just my opinion as im still fish LOL. Dont think I will buy them after the trials are done. It takes the challenge out of poker for me.
Ackthecat
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Bawookles
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 35
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
So, if the games die, just get better. Or don't get better. I don't want more of a challenge than I already have.
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I'm sure you've been asked this before, wufwugy, but I gotta know. What's the name or link of your attractive little friend in your signature???
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06-02-2012, 08:10 PM Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
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