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Grinding a bankroll from no deposit - where to next?

  
 
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tunah
Old 01-21-2009, 01:03 PM     Post subject: Grinding a bankroll from no deposit - where to next? #1 (permalink)  

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 44
tunah
There's a few sites that will give you free starting credit. I decided to try to grind this into a bankroll.

I signed up with pokerstrategy.com and got a free $50 credit on a new PartyPoker account. In order to withdraw the initial credit I need to clear it which is ~7k hands of 5NL or 10NL. Once that's cleared there's another $100 bonus at the same rate ($25 increments, 3.5k hands each). I'm also collecting points that are worth ~$1/1000 hands.

So all up I'm getting just over $8/1000 hands in bonuses, which is almost exactly the same as the rake I'm paying. (So far I've played 6k hands of 5NL and I'm up to $127 (15ptBB/100 + one freeroll cash), and I've paid $50 in rake.)

Once I break $200 and can move up to 10NL, my rake will double but none of my bonuses will increase (PP doesn't give extra points for 10NL vs 5NL). So I'll be getting about 50% of rake. And once my bonus runs out I'll be getting about 12%. I understand it's important to maximise bonuses/rakeback even at microstakes to keep moving up quickly.

I'm guessing I should move to a different site either when I'm rolled for 10NL or when I run out of bonuses. My criteria:
  • I'm not in the US, so UIGEA isn't an issue
  • Needs to be plenty of games at 10NL at weird times (I'm in NZ) so a decent sized site/network I guess.
  • Reasonably easy to beat
  • A good rate of bonuses at small stakes.

I was thinking Full Tilt as a default option, as seemingly the biggest site that offers a flat % rakeback. I've heard that the micros there are quite tight though, and wonder if that makes them too hard to beat. I also don't know how the bonuses interact (e.g. do deposit bonuses stack with rakeback, and can you realistically clear them at microstakes?)

If someone who's played micros on a few sites has any suggestions that'd be great...
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jyms
Old 01-21-2009, 06:29 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 I will tell you the same as I have told all the others. Maybe if you don't have enough money to deposit, you should probably find something more productive to do with your time than playing poker at teh lowest stakes imaginable. How about a job, with some medical benefits and a nice place to live on your own. How about getting out and finding a girlfriend or boyfriend, and when you have a couple bucks you don't want to spend on booze or a cell phone upgrade, then play some poker by depositing a small sum of cash and play in your leisure time.

almost everyone, and I mean everyone busts these freebies. They don't have the skill nor the for foresight to grind the hands necessary to get out of the micro stakes. You will be busted and looking for another hand out in two weeks.
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tunah
Old 01-21-2009, 11:12 PM #3 (permalink)  

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Posts: 44
tunah
Um, okay. I do have enough money to deposit, but I don't quite get what you're suggesting. Currently I'm rolled for 5NL, and I don't want to move up unless I can beat it, so I'm not sure what depositing would gain me. Are you saying there's so little difference between the stakes that a complete beginner should start at 25NL? If nothing else, starting at tiny stakes is helping me learn not to play with scared money.

It's possible that I don't have enough skill to win in the long term, or that I won't have the determination to grinding hands, or I'll go on tilt and lose the money. But if that's inevitable I guess I'll just give up on poker and feel envious of those deemed gifted enough to play.

I guess I'm not being constructive here. You say almost everyone busts the freebies. Why is that? The reasons I can think of are
  1. They're losing players because they don't know what they're doing. Maybe this applies to me and I'm just riding variance now. I like to think I'm smart enough to learn to beat the micros at least, and the (inconclusive) evidence suggests so.
  2. They don't use proper bankroll management. Admittedly I started underrolled (the lowest Party limit is $5) but I can't see having to do that again.
  3. Despite using proper bankroll management and winning, variance takes them out anyway. Always possible, but I believe unlikely?
  4. They gamble, looking to double up quickly and willing to go broke (like all-in-first-hand freeroll players). This can be rational because the credit isn't withdrawable. I've done that deliberately on another freebie site. The initial deposit is now 95% cleared so it's real money and this doesn't apply.
  5. They go on tilt and lose it all. I'm not going to pretend this can't happen to me!
  6. any others?

I found your post pretty discouraging, because these are the stakes I'd probably play for now if it were my own money, so it seems like you're telling me not to play at all.
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jyms
Old 01-22-2009, 01:35 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 signing up for freebies is usually reserved for people with no cash because you lose any chance at a bonus. Taking that $50 you took at Party cost you about $500 in first deposit bonus's and on other sites like Titan it will cost you any chance at a start up bonus or rakeback which is worth a hell of a lot of money compared to the measly $100 or so dollars you are getting.
Most players bust because they are beginners and only a beginners would be stupid enough to take a free $50 in lieu of the cash available to them if they could deposit.

Most can't practice BR management because the sites offering $50 don't have $2NL, so they have to play $5NL or $10NL and with their limited experience cannot possibly play the allotted hands in order to clear these points and get the money.

Lastly without depositing first most sites will not allow you to withdraw, making anything they lose by giving you this money is made backwhen you deposit and stay paying tons of rake at the micro's which means you have to deposit anyway. Nobody will deposit after the fact because they just lost out on the bonus and usually have figured all this out in the meantime while trying to find ways around it. So they do something silly with anything they have left and try to level jump to make something out of the little they have.

But by the sounds of it you already have it figured out since you are already making plans to move to the next site with your free cash. Maybe you won't make the same mistake at Full Tilt, or did you already make an account there too blowing any chance at the rakeback. full tilt doesn't pay rakeback you have to get it from an affiliate site and then register through them.

As for telling you where to play, no I'm not. The micro's is where you should be. My reasoning behind my post is to tell others the same as posted many times. Don't take these free deposits if you plan on grinding a roll and making poker a side income or a long term investment. It will stunt your growth if you are jsut starting out. You lose more than you gain, and for someone like you that says he can deposit, just deposit. The bonus's and rakeback alone can help with the learning curve an possible starting variance and protect your investment. Plus moving from $2NL, 45NL and finally $10NL is pretty much the same players just more money so clear those bonus's and move up.
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tunah
Old 01-22-2009, 02:43 AM #5 (permalink)  

Join Date: Jan 2009
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tunah
I signed up for the freebie because I didn't know whether I could beat the game or not. If I deposited the full $500 at Party I'd get a $500 bonus instead of $150. In exchange any losses would be my own. Even if I won I probably couldn't clear the full amount before it expired, and if I was winning there are other sites that I thought would offer comparable bonuses. I signed up with party because they didn't offer rakeback and I wanted to leave my options open for the sites that did (although as it turns out poker-strategy does pay rakeback).

I'm not saying there aren't downsides or potential traps, for example I'd be kicking myself if I'd signed up for Full Tilt and locked myself out of rakeback. That's why I'm asking for advice on the next step, I don't know the ins and outs of the bonus systems and want to have a plan.

It sounds like I should clear my bonus, then take my roll out and deposit it in a site with rakeback and a first deposit bonus. Possibly I should top my roll up to $500 or whatever the maximum deposit bonus is? And if I do so I shouldn't have any qualms about moving to 10NL. Is that about right?
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daven
Old 01-22-2009, 08:30 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 gidday. I'm also in nz, wellington. chuck me a pm if you're around and i can help get you set up to rack up those bonuses.

Don't open a Full Tilt account until you have $600 in your bankroll - you want to max out first deposit bonuses.

Once you've finished clearing the party stuff, move to stars and clear their $50 first deposit bonus. By then you should have a few hundred dollars. Empire could be good then? and others. Don't sign up anywhere without rakeback where rakeback is available.

(set up a neteller account if you're going to bonus whore, currency conversion costs $$ otherwise)

I've read a lot of advice given by Jyms - it's generally pretty sound! Sounds as though you aren't falling into the typical "wow, free money!" trap though.
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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