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phantom_lord
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09-16-2007, 04:44 AM
Post subject: Drama @ AP
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
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A link to this thread was posted in another forum I read, the thread really gets interesting at the end.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...fpart=all&vc=1
This is just a couple of things pulled from it.
Quote:
okay, dan druff's post:
Quote:
I've played a whole lot on AP this year, especially over the summer.
Oddly enough, I missed out on most of the Greycat/Supercard/etc. games due to sheer coincidences of timing (basically I'd be out or sleeping when he'd show up). Still, I played about 10 sessions with the guy, including one heads up, and noticed exactly what everyone else is noticing:
1) His hand selection pre-flop is so bad (especially 9 handed) that he should be losing a fortune against the top-flight players he's been facing. Instead, he's been winning big almost every session.
2) It is very rare that he will fold if you miss the flop.
3) When you are holding a huge hand, he folds often.
Basically, yes, he plays like someone who can see your cards. But that's nothing new to anyone on this thread. I've played against legitimate players who have run so well that I'd swear they could see my hand if I didn't know better. We've also all seen examples of huge donks running up amazing short-term streaks that we never thought were possible -- including odd plays that leave us scratching our heads.
So what's the difference here? Perhaps nothing, perhaps something. But the evidence we've seen so far, some anecdotal, others more damning, makes this worth another look.
Before I go on, I can confirm that Greycat, Supercard, and the other suspect accounts posted here ARE indeed the same person. This isn't an assumption or a guess. It's a fact. PM me if you want me to explain this part further.
So we have this Greycat person playing on multiple accounts -- sometimes chipdumping between them -- and playing the highest games Absolute Poker has to offer. He plays both limit and no limit, yet top regular players from both games report the same suspicious experience with him.
He has won a ton of money (does anyone have the exact figures?), and rarely seems to lose.
If he is cheating, I think I know how he's doing it.
Long before Greycat showed up, there was some concern that AP had a "superuser" account, created by its software developers. This account, created strictly for testing purposes, would be able to see all cards of all players in all games. As a software programmer by trade, I can tell you that such an account would be very helpful in the development and testing process for a complicated piece of software like AP. I referred to there being "some concern" that such an account exists. I say this because I have some circumstantial evidence (which I can't share in public) that this is true, but I don't have any proof. Furthermore, prior to this Greycat situation, I had no reason to believe that this account ever fell into the wrong hands.
But what if it did fall into the wrong hands? Perhaps someone could have hacked it. Perhaps a rogue ex-developer of the software could have passed some info along to an accomplice. Perhaps a lot of things.
The fact is that, if Greycat did get access to such an account, he'd pretty much be doing exactly what he's doing now. Yes, maybe some subtlety would have done him better (so as to avoid this suspicion), but history is full of criminals whose otherwise brilliant capers were foiled by just a bit too much greed.
It's time to stop guessing and get some answers here. Obviously AP will never admit their system was compromised, even if it were true. That would pretty much be the equivalent of poker room suicide. We need to put together a concrete plan of action to either prove this guy is a fraud, or prove to ourselves that we're a bunch of paranoid fools. Either way, we need to prove something. In the next post, I'll give my suggestions on what I feel we should do next.
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cliff notes; super super suspicious play, damning hh's posted at the end of the thread, looks like villain can see everyone's hole card.
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phantom_lord
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Flush
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oops. this is prob the wrong forum.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
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It's all good, I read the thread in BBV after they removed the thread from the limit forum.
This is really interesting and could be extremely bad for the state of online poker.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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this has been rumoured for a while, i thought nothing of it but did watch the guy in action and he was just sick.
Ive been part of the rigged crew before and now just refuse to comment.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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did anyone notice lukie's stars sn is in one of the 5/10 post for the ap game in that thread?
lukieplaya a BOT? LOLOLOL
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Dislexsik
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Full House
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Probably wont take long before every fish will flood the forums with posts like "i told u online poker is rigged but u wouldnt believe me!".
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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evidence is pretty conclusive that the guy cheats if you read the thread. But its no way something that would be happening in wider games.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
did anyone notice lukie's stars sn is in one of the 5/10 post for the ap game in that thread?
lukieplaya a BOT? LOLOLOL
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lol, what? only thing i saw was that stupid 5-10 hand where my A4o wins allin pre unimprovd.
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mcatdog
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For what it's worth I tried to deposit $400 there a few months ago and the money left my bank account but never showed up in my account. Their support has completely ignored any and all attempts by me to get my money back.
Anyone who still plays there after this is a sucker.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
For what it's worth I tried to deposit $400 there a few months ago and the money left my bank account but never showed up in my account. Their support has completely ignored any and all attempts by me to get my money back.
Anyone who still plays there after this is a sucker.
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oddly enough ive just withdrawn 8k so im hoping the half thats coming via cheque gets here.
Lukie, yeah it was juts that A4 hand.
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SmackinYaUp
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4-of-a-Kind
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{Moved from SHNL by SmackinYaUp}
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He who drinks beer sleeps well.
He who sleeps well cannot sin.
He who does not sin goes to Heaven.
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phantom_lord
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp
{Moved from SHNL by SmackinYaUp}
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but no one will see it here!
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
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I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but wow. Look at that river af!
This is a HH that everyone keeps posting:
Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:49 (ET)
Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
POTRIPPER - Ante $450
CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450
POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500
*** POCKET CARDS ***
POTRIPPER - Calls $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $9000
CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000
*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($428520)
Board [4h Kd Kh 7s 5s]
Seat 3: POTRIPPER (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($428520) HI $428520) with One pair, kings(ten kicker) [10c 9c - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:10c,P:9c,B:7s]
Seat 8: CRAZYMARCO (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, kings [9h 2h - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:9h,B:7s,B:5s]
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
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this thread on ith is sick: http://www.internettexasholdem.com/p...s-vt34808.html
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Get your own badge! Click profile at the top and FTR Badge from the left nav.
"The Dragon in My Garage" by Carl Sagan
I say onto you, I've felt the dragon! I felt the touch of his tail, the breath of his fire, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that the dragon exists!
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
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lol
96/72 wheeeeeeeee
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Get your own badge! Click profile at the top and FTR Badge from the left nav.
"The Dragon in My Garage" by Carl Sagan
I say onto you, I've felt the dragon! I felt the touch of his tail, the breath of his fire, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that the dragon exists!
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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none of the HHs in isolation are particularly damning.
But over a sample size with infinite river aggression, the evidence certainly is.
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
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Well, thats insta-cashout for me then.
Wanna get my BR out of there before they go bust. Take a look at the ring games lobby, pretty much nobody is playing mid/high stakes.
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PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
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nobody is every playing mid/high stakes there.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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im pretty sure a certain gp333 logged on to play 5/10 this afternoon and was owing some fish HU,
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by givememyleg
This is a HH that everyone keeps posting:
Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:49 (ET)
Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
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Yeah, I don't get what this has to do with the price of corn. For one thing, it's a tournament, so big deal. As well, Potripper has the other guy outchipped by a decent amount. If he thought the turn was a huge bluff because of a read, this isn't *that* questionable. Maybe a poor call, but not indicative of anything amiss.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Also, the next room I sign up to my UserID will be "Superuser Account".
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
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Originally Posted by givememyleg
This is a HH that everyone keeps posting:
Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:49 (ET)
Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
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Yeah, I don't get what this has to do with the price of corn. For one thing, it's a tournament, so big deal. As well, Potripper has the other guy outchipped by a decent amount. If he thought the turn was a huge bluff because of a read, this isn't *that* questionable. Maybe a poor call, but not indicative of anything amiss. |
read the thread. As i said, one HH in isolation is not damning, the RING GAME STATS are very much so.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
read the thread. As i said, one HH in isolation is not damning, the RING GAME STATS are very much so.
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Oh, sure. I read the thread and am just as puzzled as everyone else. I just thought the Potripper tangent was completely missing the mark. I'll bet a number of people saw the dollar amount and didn't notice it was a tournament.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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More damning evidence
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Unibomber14
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
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bastard...
I just stared an account on Pstars, and am now going to move all of my AP earnings there. Whether this is true or not, which I personally believe it is extremely feasible, It will be a big hindrance to all the games on AP. When the fish here these stories, and they will here them eventually, they will stop playing out of fear that it's happening to them. They may be more prone to leaving when they are getting beat too. Since they may think that they are being cheated and not just outplayed. Good thing I just started that Epasspote account.
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"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
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Jack Sawyer
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
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I was looking for this for the longest time: Its Robo's Theme from Chrono Trigger!
Anyway, infinite river aggression? As in, always bets river?
But his won @ showdown % is very low...
Edit: oh, but the second screenshot is right up at 67%...
Edit again: All of them are upwards of 60%, where the fuck did I see a low won @ showdown %... Damn, gg Absolute
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
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although i think this is teh huge gay, much props for disguising it well.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
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even tho i saw the youtube link, i seriously thought there would be a video of a chip dump.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
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I was looking for this for the longest time: Its Robo's Theme from Chrono Trigger!
Anyway, infinite river aggression? As in, always bets river?
But his won @ showdown % is very low...
Edit: oh, but the second screenshot is right up at 67%...
Edit again: All of them are upwards of 60%, where the fuck did I see a low won @ showdown %... Damn, gg Absolute |
infinite river aggression means that he raised OR folded and did not call (there are cases when he can only call, eg a push or checked behind because he knew his opp would call.
lol@ the screen shot from PT where the average of infinity and 20 is 26! as someone pointed out.
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SinkRox
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 624
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obv cheating... what a wasted opportunity.
online poker won't suffer, its happened before at Party.
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Experimenting - 200NL 5max.
"They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?" Waking life
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Somebody got to Wikipedia already?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Seif
Quote:
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Presently, he is embroiled in a high-stakes cheating controversy at Absolute Poker.
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I Like Pie
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 399
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Bottom of that Wikipedia page:
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This page was last modified 06:40, 11 July 2007.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by I Like Pie
Bottom of that Wikipedia page:
Quote:
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This page was last modified 06:40, 11 July 2007.
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That shows the time before last. The current page was updated yesterday, and again since I posted that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...action=history
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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someone has gotta photoshop a mark seif avatar for me.
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Unibomber14
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The future
Posts: 321
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gabe sat down w/ Doubledrag last night. I want to know how that went. I tried to watch, but the table was too full. I guess everyone wants proof.
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"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Unibomber14
gabe sat down w/ Doubledrag last night. I want to know how that went. I tried to watch, but the table was too full. I guess everyone wants proof.
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It's all on 2+2. DD dumped about $30K to various players (even giving $800 to one observer who was challenging him). Most are of the opinion it was cover play.
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I Like Pie
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 399
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^^^ The hand histories from that session were ridiculous. Gabe must have made a killing cause that guy was just spewing chips left and right.
It was so obvious that he realized that he was caught and thought this was a good way to cover it up.
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I Like Pie
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 399
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lol
Quote:
Stage #764265850: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 19:09:52 (ET)
Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 6 - PROT0 ($764.12 in chips)
Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($2815.75 in chips)
PROT0 - Posts small blind $10
DOUBLEDRAG - Posts big blind $20
*** POCKET CARDS ***
PROT0 - Calls $10
DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $20 to $40
PROT0 - Calls $20
*** FLOP *** [Qc 3s 9c]
DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $20
PROT0 - Raises $166 to $166
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $146
*** TURN *** [Qc 3s 9c] [7d]
DOUBLEDRAG - Checks
PROT0 - All-In $558.12
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $558.12
*** RIVER *** [Qc 3s 9c 7d] [10s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DOUBLEDRAG - Shows [Kc 4h] (king high)
PROT0 - Shows [Qh 8s] (One pair, queens)
PROT0 Collects $1527.74 from main pot
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Unibomber14
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The future
Posts: 321
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Maybe that's why so many people were there. I shoulda tried to throw my roll in. I think I could make the min. buyin.
Yeah, who am I kidding. I might make half.
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"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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lol i coulda been br'ed to play HU.
*shakes head*
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xyu
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 49
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does this mean that gabe doesn't think there is anything suspect goin on, and that this guy was just a big fish running hot, or that he knew the guy was chip dumping and wanted in without giving it away that he knew?
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by xyu
does this mean that gabe doesn't think there is anything suspect goin on, and that this guy was just a big fish running hot, or that he knew the guy was chip dumping and wanted in without giving it away that he knew?
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the guy's just a spewtard fish, obv. 
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Jimmy Mac
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
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This thread has less spam and some interesting stats and HHs:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...fpart=all&vc=1
I like the one where he cold caps from the BB then check/folds a 522 flop.
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Jimmy Mac
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Drinking your milkshake.
Posts: 950
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funny
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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Has anything been done about this yet or is the guy still spewing chips all over the place?
I must say, I dont see why AP has such a bad reputation regarding cashouts.. I requested a cashout on Sunday and received the funds in my Neteller account yesterday.
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PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
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I Like Pie
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 399
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This story isn't dying anytime soon. Here it's mentioned a NY Times' writer's blog:
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.co...-not-to-cheat/
And I loved when AP support wrote back to one of the players, "99.9% of the players can't see the other players holecards". lol
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Setzy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 399
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If anybody remembers the "Grand Theft Farha" picture, I had that as my desktop for a long time....Grand Theft Poker just took its place  !
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Save your stories 'cuz they're all the same..
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by I Like Pie
And I loved when AP support wrote back to one of the players, "99.9% of the players can't see the other players holecards". lol
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lol wtf
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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I Like Pie
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 399
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Here is the full post:
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I called the Absolute VIP phone number and asked to speak to any representative. I actually play on UB but the number for their VIP support actually goes to AP VIP. So, I called and spoke with Mario, and started to press him on the issue. He gave me generic responses about security, and wanted to send me an email that talks about how their security works. I told him "I don't need to know how your seurity works to know that someone is able to see other players' hole cards." He said, and I QUOTE: "99.9% of the players cannot see the other players' hole cards." I told him my UB name, and also DOUBLEDRAG's name. He said he would forward this to support and email me the results. So, basically, I hope I get my UB cashout.
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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You wold have thought that AP would have made a formal statement to the online poker community by now if they actually give a crap about it.
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PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
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06-02-2012, 08:10 PM Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
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