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drdeutsch

10-27-2005, 03:19 AM Post subject: card generating software

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2005

Posts: 60

This question is more tuned towards Pokerstars, where I play, but it applies to all online poker rooms.

My question is about the engine that generates which cards come on the flop, turn, and river.

Are all 5 cards selected before the action, as in an actual deck of cards (e.g. In a home game, if the Jd Jh 2d 3c Ah are in the deck in that order, they are going to come regardless). Thus, all that remains is for the server to display them?

Or is each card generated on the fly? Selects the first card, eliminates it from the deck, selects the 2nd card, eliminates it from the deck, selects the 3rd card, etc...

That could be broken down, also. For example all 3 flop cards could be selected at the same time, then the turn and river cards could be selected at the appropriate time for them.

I only ask because I'm curious about how it works. I've read the post on the online rooms being rigged, but sometimes I just wonder how it's decided which cards are going to come and who's going to suck out.

Thanks,
drdeutsch

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lolzzz_321

10-27-2005, 03:29 AM

#2 (permalink)

NO YOU

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: My ice is polarized

Posts: 2,797

How do I keep from flaming you?

Demiparadigm

10-27-2005, 04:26 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Party 6 max

Posts: 1,602

I suggest you email support@pokerstars.com for answers to these and similar questions.

To answer this specific question, on PokerStars, the deck is shuffled prior to any action or cards being dealt out. (Much like it would be in a real cardroom) They use a very sophisticated RNG. So, it is not decided "who will suck out" as all action after the cards have been shuffled is completely up to the players.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

Demiparadigm

10-27-2005, 05:02 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Party 6 max

Posts: 1,602

PokerStars Support <support@pokerstars.com> wrote:

The deck is shuffled before the hand, and it is not reshuffled continuosly
during the course of the hand.

Feel free to tell anyone in doubt of the integrity and security of our
games, that they are free to contact us if they have any questions.

As I am sure you are aware, we also have a standing offer to all our
players to send them copies of all the real money hands they have ever
played on our site. They can review these hands or run them through
programs such as PokerTracker or PokerOffice. If they do this, I am sure
sure they will find what we already knew (since we analyze all hands dealt
daily); our shuffle is completely random.

This information is not sent to you, or any other player, until betting
is completed each betting round.

The hole card information of each player is only sent to
the player holding the cards. If the hands reaches a showdown, the
information will be sent to the players at the time of the showdown, when betting is completed.

While the deck is shuffled once and the order of the cards is thus known
to the server from the commencement of the hand, none of this data is sent
to the players until the very moment it is needed. All data is sent from
server to players on a "just in time" basis. It simply isn't available on
the player's computer in advance of being seen.

That leaves two possibilities -- the possibility that the data has somehow
been purloined from the server, or that the flop can somehow be predicted
with mathematical forumlae from remote.

For the latter, you'd have to assume our shuffle itself is flawed --
Something that both independent auditors at two firms have certified as not possible,
having looked at the source code. You can see their findings here:

www.pokerstars.com/rng_audit.html

The ONLY way to get such data off of the server
would be from the inside. First and foremost, the game servers themselves
are behind firewalls and don't even have external IP addresses. They
speak to the outside world ONLY via controlled gateways that can talk only
to computers belonging to our programmers. An outsider would first have
to penetrate this formidable security to even get a program onto the
servers that could watch for and transmit the data. Not only would a
hacker have to get past the firewall, he'd have to get past the security
of the server itself, gaining administrator privileges such that he could
install and run such an application... undetected by us.

Our servers are monitored daily for any rogue processes that are not part
of our server processes. They are also restarted regularly.

Finally, the data on the shuffled order of the deck is not stored in the
database (where it could be requested somehow, and even then only if the
requesting software had access -- more on that shortly). It is stored
ONLY in memory, as an internal memory structure in the game server.

Now, if you know anything at all about software, you know that memory is
protected. If you've ever gotten a Windows GPF error, this is one program
trying to read memory that belongs to another application. Operating
systems are renowned for not letting one program trample or even read the
memory that belongs to another application.

If through trillions to one odds a hacker was able to penetrate the server
firewalls, penetrate the administrator security of the servers (and there
are multiple servers), install a shuffle monitoring program, somehow
reverse-engineering the internal memory structures so that they knew where
in memory to look and how to interpret it, and keep such programs intact
between our routine maintenance deployments and restarts..... they'd still
have the problem of protected memory -- trying to access memory that
belonged to another process (the server code itself).

In a word, impossible. The ONLY way such a hack would work would be if it
were coded directly into the server software itself... and that code is
swept regularly, and updated often. No rogue code has ever made it into
our server software, and I dare say none will.

In short, the cards to come cannot be purloined from the server by
internal or external software, and they are not sent to the client in
advance of the moment they need to be seen by all players.

In any case, the PokerStars software itself is absolutely secure, and all
players can be assured that the cards to come cannot be predicted in any
manner on PokerStars.

Best Regards,

Jeff
PokerStars Support Supervisor

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

r8ed

10-27-2005, 05:07 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1,524

Most programs have a shuffle and then getCard routine (among others). They will just keep calling the getCard routine when needed. It works just like at home. It's not rigged...except when my Aces get cracked.

salsa4ever

10-27-2005, 09:41 AM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Melbourne

Posts: 1,073

Can i clarify whether the FTR have been determined already along with the pocket cards are being dealt (as opposed to reshuffling the deck before dealing each street)? It seems to me that it is; or does it vary with different websites?

Assuming it's already decided, I think theoretically it's possible to exploit that... much like the exploitation of the video poker machines many years ago. But practically it's not possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?

drdeutsch

10-27-2005, 02:03 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2005

Posts: 60

Quote:

While the deck is shuffled once and the order of the cards is thus known to the server from the commencement of the hand, none of this data is sent to the players until the very moment it is needed. All data is sent from
server to players on a "just in time" basis. It simply isn't available on the player's computer in advance of being seen.

Thanks,
this answered it.

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